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In this episode of China paradigm, Matthieu David interviews Thomas Morisset, CEO of madeforgoods. Through the story of madeforgoods, we explore how to build and run SaaS product in China. Thomas Morisset explains how he found his co-founders, his business model and how to enter the WeChat ecosystem.

China paradigm is a podcast is sponsored by daxue consulting where we interview successful entrepreneurs about their businesses in China. You can access all available episodes from the China paradigm Youtube page.

Matthieu David: Hi everyone, I’m welcoming Thomas Morisset, actually a longtime friend of mine, as well same as Thomas Graziani (from the China paradigm episode #1 interview). Thomas used to work at a very large alcohol firm called Canovaca. Five or six years ago are how I came to know him because we had one friend in common and he ultimately started his own business Made for Goods. So, I’d like to know more about what he’s doing because his numbers pretty impressive. In his presentations he’s talking about 1 billion transaction a year and I have to confess that I had hard time doing this. Step by step the more I talked to him the more I understand what he’s doing and I hope that we can understand a bit more as well how to run the tag company, a software company, the SaaS company to be more precise in China. Welcome to us.

Thomas Morisset: Hi, how are you?

Matthieu: Good and thanks for being coming here. Good. What is “Made for Goods”?

Thomas: Okay Made for Goods is a SaaS company in China. We’ve been around for a little bit over two years now and based in Shanghai. We offer to our clients which are large package goods companies in China and software to have them interface their smaller customers. So, some of our clients are a yeast company which we use software to interface with small baker’s largely in China. A company which uses our software to interface with factories which use their products or deliver with the software to interface small independent beauty stores and small wholesalers. The reason we need this kind of digital solution is that typically in China they don’t sell to these guys directly. They sell through two million wholesalers which are still running a business in China today.

Matthieu: Okay.

Thomas: We do have a direct connection to them. So, with our solution they can start to have Nando’s during their BTB programs and give them incentives based packages and showing them new product intervention or new promotion which are good. This is little by little making the relationship more direct and eventually configured.

Matthieu: Okay so I think that’s a lot to understand from this because I’m not sure I understand all the process. You are providing software an app which is helping those people who buy product from those companies you talk about ; you talked about Unilever, to scan the product they buy so that same Unilever knows that he went to this shop. Is it correct?

Thomas: Yes, exactly. So, for example for a certain there are maybe 1 million restaurants, bakeries who bake in China and who used the yeast products. When you bake and you want some to mix to rise.

Matthieu: The thing some people may listen to us and not watch the video. So basically when you’re baking right you need a product to make it bigger.

Thomas: Yes for the whole product to become bread. So, the result is the world leading company for East and it’s has very big players in China as well and they sell their yeast through wholesales. So, a baker like somebody who who sells cakes or mantle or in China he would scan the products and he will register via Wechat to the membership program of the brand. We use for that technology which is called “We Program Wechat” which is something between the websites. It’s as easy to open the customers as much time that it’s stable and smooth to use as an app going forward. Via this program we can accumulate points or coupons or rewards and for the products that they are purchasing still through the wholesalers. They can exchange them for free goods or for other benefits from the brands. This is how the brand progressively changes from promoting new product launches or seasonal promotion which they used to through the wholesalers so indirectly not directly with the bakers.

Matthieu: I see. So who is getting the incentive? Is it the business or the people with care? I’m not sure.

Thomas: This is a very good question. So, it can both. There are multiple roles and there’s the business manager or the business owner and other business employees. So, for the bakeries it’s not a big difference because most of them are independent. So, the owner or the manager is the cook is the same person. But for larger companies like restaurants we have multiple waiters house for wine. You may have both incentivized.

Matthieu: Okay both are incentivized to scan and they get rewards in terms of gifting or discount in future orders. Is that correct?

Thomas: Yes. So these rewards go with the existing money. So they get a plan via the wholesalers. This is Chinese New Year. If you buy one case of wine you can get 2 free bottles for example. Now we are digitized so instead of all this going through the wholesalers and it happens with the brand directly, but without changing too much. The transactional and the distribution are in the middle.

Matthieu: I see. I understand. What’s your objective? Is your objective to understand what the products are becoming, where they are and who is using them? Is it to scheme the wholesalers? Is it to actually build a loyalty program? I see different aspects which can be leveraged through your app. Which one is the main one the main? The main reason people come to you?

Thomas: The long-term objective is to be direct with these guys. It’s to have a direct relationship with them which means that the brand can convince them directly to use the yeasts in the recipes or to use the alcohol in the wine list or the beauty products on their shells by communicating with them directly and influencing directly their orders and the purchase decision via promotional offerings. But you cannot go directly to this. You cannot remove everything else which is where markets are. It’s because there are many people in between and in interest. So, you need to go step by step. I think the simple beauty of the the procurement is that you can introduce this new relationship without changing anything else and without upsetting too much the other people. You’re just little by little some of the relationship which was indirect to direct. So, some promotions which could go through wholesalers before now they are direct and maybe in your next steps you will take others and you will transfer these others to the wholesalers  to procurement. Then one day you will go direct.

Matthieu: I see. Does it mean that now the wholesalers are also scanning?

Thomas: So, they are also programs now because there are multiple layers of the wholesalers in China in many situations. So, they are also customers program for wholesalers because you are trying to skip the first layer eventually. So, in that case is considered scanning.

Matthieu: Okay. How does it work exactly? Could you describe the process and a typical example of the best case you like to describe?

Thomas: Yes. So, for another customer Eternal Asia which is a local China company which distributes alcohol to restaurants and bars in China.

Matthieu: What’s the name?

Thomas: the English name is Eternal Asia

Matthieu: Okay.

Thomas: It’s a Club 500 company in terms of procurement in China. So, so the staff of restaurants scan them to get incentives. So, this has replaced all the previous mechanisms they had of reporting by certain people or plastics incentives of wholesalers. So it saves them a lot of money in cheating or inaccuracies or operational fees and to digitize the way they interact with the staff of the restaurants.

Matthieu: You “save money”, but I’m not sure we understand how they save money. You talked about in your presentation that you made your clients a three points of PNL or increased by three points to make profit. So how do they really save money? I see actually what I understand is that you ask people outside of your company to do a work you should do which is to know what your product is becoming and rework each layer of the chain. Is it what you talked about when you say saving money?

Thomas: Yes. So I think the big difference between b2b and b2c is that the price is not the same for everybody. If you’re a consumer for everything you know and you got different prices, but these prices are available to all customers. In b2b the bigger you are if you commit to this brand with who you are and your recipe or what you’re using in your restaurant, if you are bigger then and you should get a better price because you no barking power with the price. So there are a big part of this company’s gross sales which is re-spent on this council to basically lower price the early days to some of the bigger customers which are unlocked. When you do sell to these customers directly then you have to trust your wholesalers to take these free days and give it to them appropriately basically. Now the problem is that what the wholesalers are supposed to do is to go to tell these bigger customers, bigger restaurants or bigger restaurants, bars or chefs and convince them to take a big part of that brand into the company. This takes a lot of work. They tell the brand okay I have this and that, please give me this rebate so I can give it to them. This is a traditional way of doing business. The premise is that it’s much easier for the wholesaler to lie and save many of these big customers. They get a lot of rebates then they have no price which is lower than the other wholesalers and they resell it on the internet on the wholesale markets. So, a lot of companies save directly is by removing some of these cheating and inefficiencies because you get more accurate data directly by your customers into the relaying by their wholesalers.

Matthieu: I see those wholesalers you’re telling us that some of the layers are working with a solution. Are they okay with that?

Thomas: Of course not. There are two million wholesalers in China and I think many of them offer traditional businesses. Many of them also are not very sure of what’s their relevance in the future digital ecommerce world because they have no product. The differentiation actually they are just a community a community for statistics and financial service between brands and concepts. So, they still have some power because they have some relationships with outlets as it relates to authorities. So, they have some level of influence on the economies of the city where they work. You don’t want to accept them because otherwise they will use their influence to damage your brands. This is why everything you do you need to do step by step. You can’t go too fast. You can go faster than the normal trend of the market of eventually they are losing influence and they will emerge. This is what we recommend to all our customers they need to start today to digitize the relationship with us. They need to go as quickly as possible without stretching too much and going beyond the parameter of the brand and the resistance of the markets.

Matthieu: Who is going to do this work of convincing or softening a change to the wholesalers? Are you working with the client on this or you let the clientele into the wholesaler?

Thomas:  it’s really a job of the brand and to maintain and let these relationships evolve with the distributors and wholesalers. If you look at experience because actually these relationships and these operations they are very similar in all industries we go to. It can be alcohol, it can be shampoo, it can be construction material it’s always the same thing. It’s very personal but they are also unaware of future growth. So you have this very complex relationship of keeping them happy, but knowing that there is going to be less and less importance in the future of your company. So we’ve brought them a lot of advice and also its step by step working with us and what we should do better. We also make them talk to each other especially when they’re from different industries and then they’re very happy to share experiences and they can give each other advice for ones which have been far away in the process and give advice to our other clients.

Matthieu: The clients you have now you talk to about lots of them, they process all the distribution with your clients? All of it?

Thomas: Correct. Of course when we send new clients we open it up to the clients which are one of the business units in the municipal ones and one sells arrear. Eventually we go through all the business units which are distributed directly to us for to the wholesalers in the entire sea of the channel.

Matthieu: Do people actually respect that to actually scan at each layer of the transaction when they receive the products, when they want to realer the product? Do they respect the process now?

Thomas: Eventually this is added value that the brand gives as a cook, waiter or a hair stylist. So you can choose not to have this value of course. But again the difference between b2b and b2c you know as a b2c as a consumer you have many promotions every day. You can go to town on each free beta. But for me I don’t do this because I don’t want to be bothered by these things, and how I spend my efforts. But for them this is. This is where ten people work eight hours every day; buy every day the same products. So, getting the best deal on this product it’s a nice thing to have. It’s how you optimize your business and because it’s an analyzed process. You have to educate people who are working because you have people who consume everyday. You can get all your personnel. You can never get all your consumers.

Matthieu: I see. So you feel that in b2b discounts and gifting are working better. That’s what you’re saying right? They make more sense for them. It’s more rational.

Thomas: Yes.

Matthieu: Okay I understand. Can you give us a sense of the size of the company, the number of people, revenues, growth if you can share?

Thomas: Okay so the team is 27 people in Shanghai.

Matthieu: 27.

Thomas: Yes and most of them are working with developing software. The revenues are VARR. Below one million US with US dollars.

Matthieu: you pay you VARR monthly.

Thomas: VARR.

Matthieu: VARR okay. I see.

Thomas: So the revenues are – we have a lot of fees and these things which we’re really VARR. VARR has won already by 4 compared to last year.

Matthieu: Multiplied by 4.

Thomas: Yes. We expect it will grow by 4 again in 2018.

Matthieu: Okay.

Thomas: Actually we already have times two, not guaranteed which we expect to get organically from existing customers.

Matthieu: I see.

Thomas: With each of our customer we start with pilots which works for growth is the block from the new customers, but also from going deeper with our existing customers.

Matthieu: I see. Are you still profitable now or still investing?

Thomas: No, we’re investing.

Matthieu: Okay. Where does the money come from? You raise money?

Thomas: Yes we raised a little bit bellow one million US one year ago. We plan to raise five million next year.

Matthieu: Okay I see. Yes I was investigating a bit on the internet and found out that very difficult very hard to get information about your funding actually. On .CO you still have some information in one company which paid you I think at the beginning that I know that you choose was the only one.

Thomas: Yes. A little bit of angel investments

Matthieu: Yes.

Thomas: This it was a safe investment with multiple notes. Before that we started 2 years ago we did not receive money, but we received some office space, some developers and some advice from a local IT services company which was actually the first investor.

Matthieu: I understand okay. You talked about a core product in your plantation and I don’t understand your segmentation. Can you tell us more about this?

Thomas: Yes. We have a big Backend system which energies unique QR codes product investor, product information, business logistics, clients, authorized areas. Of course all the customer information from the register, the customer info, the history, the transactions and additional things you get from it. There is feedback in the system. Then we have a standardized Wechat program.

Matthieu: Backend is one product.

Thomas: Its one product.

Matthieu: Okay I understand. The Mini program is one product okay.

Thomas: They come together you can’t use one without the other.

Matthieu: Okay.

Thomas: So, link is the really the standard interface which we configure for each customer which they offer through their restaurants, bars. We have a new product which is coming out  for our consumers. This is more like an investment for the future and we are launching it for Christmas similar to what we do with b2b and b2c. We also have a service platform. So don’t only sell investments, but we also sell services. So we have required no data, we use our database in general which our customers can use from us. We also have some services for rewards or customer service, many of the things which you needed to actually do in order to run your b2b platform. So we have a platform of services working with partners that our customers can figure their solution.

Matthieu: When you say consumer is not the end consumer is not to track myself for companies, right?

Thomas: Yes.

Matthieu: Companies okay. So there were four points you talked about out in the Backend which is linked to the Mini app typically. It’s a system to look at how people interact with the app and how they use it and so on. Okay you have the Mini app and Wechat.  I go back from the Mini app and Wechat which I think will be very interesting to know why you use this Mini app and Wechat and not an app. You are working on a sub product which is b2c for the end clients if I’m correct.

Thomas: Yes.

Matthieu: The platform which is the service platform where you could have a lot of different products for the shop to order even if it’s not product is usually ordering it would offer direct contact with a brand. Is it correct?

Thomas: Absolutely. The platform is some tropical services that all clients may be introduced to run their program to their casinos. So, for example there are those so you can order gifts and all these kind of things. So, we have a database of gifts and including the catalogue, delivery and these things. So they plug into our platform and then we can use all these gifts for their brand and they pay us. We also have the database of all tests. So, we can look into a database to give them an idea of what they are versus the market and these sorts of things. We also have prospective services to go actually, on the feed to push this product and this is you pay as you use it. So we have all these services because at the end of the day the brand cannot run eventually as its own moderator. They cannot offer to their customers, but to do a solution by themselves. So, you need software, but you also need a sub-platform to complement the solution. So this is what we offer to them.

Matthieu: Currently the one million A, all you are doing is mainly ways the Mini app and the Backend right the first few?

Thomas: Correct. There is also visitors you can get from the services we sell.

Matthieu: Okay if I understand correctly the service platform you could have actually to plug into your service platform people want not your clients, companies which are not your clients. You don’t manage all the distribution and put QR codes on product, but they could actually plug into your platform.

Thomas: No we don’t look for that.

Matthieu: No? Okay it’s only your client.

Thomas: Yes only our clients.

Matthieu: Okay because it could be right if I understand correctly?

Thomas: I think it could be its just project focuses.

Matthieu: Okay I understand. I just want to make sure they understand. What about the app? Mini app and Witch app, I heard a lot of bad things about them that were not deliberate, no people were using it and now people are beginning to use it. But it took so much time to get back on.

Thomas: I think you know the user doesn’t really care about the Mini app. To be using it is such a big difference and both of them have good feedback. I don’t want to say Wechat or Mini app is better. They are very similar and they have some small advantages which make them more relevant depending on the business case. For us the advantages of Mini App are significant enough that we went for that directly and this year. We change from attack strategy to Mini programs strategy this year. For us these strategies our users are very frequent users of the of the brand program daily or weekly at the very least monthly. So, the saving of time on the loading time on the experience also not having to regain access re-logins of as we speak, it makes a huge difference. On the other hand there is no real inconvenience. You don’t have to load the new program and it opens at the beginning. So for us there’s a very clear decision actually to go from that.

Matthieu: Okay. So, for people who don’t understand this thing or listen to us from China.

Thomas: I think for them it’s very difficult understanding that.

Matthieu: Yes the Mini app is an app you open within the system of Wechat are so you don’t have to go out of Wechat are to open it. So it’s easier because Wechat is main one the Chinese are using.

Thomas: Yes.

Matthieu: One question about Mini app you are scanning—

Thomas: Mini program.

Matthieu: Mini program sorry. You are scanning a lot of QR codes. You know that some developers suggest going on native apps and when you have to interact with the camera of the phone. How is this with Mini program on Witch app? Is it interaction with what we call I think SDK right? I’m not a developer myself. How does it interact with the phone? Is it seamlessly as good as native?

Thomas: So it is an SDK and we used the Wechat QR code scanning solution for that and to be honest it’s excellent. I remember 5 years ago when in another life I was working with that and we’re really struggling because they will not open first of all the light of the camera so you could not scan the QR code in Wechat. All these things have been solved a long time ago and now you have not only an offline function with QR code, use also zooming in when you’re little bit far from it, automatically detection of there are fog lights and overall excellence metric recognition. I don’t think I could do something better than that so not even trying.

Matthieu: Don’t you feel too dependent on Wechat? Do you price it as a risk for your business to be dependent with Wechat app?

Thomas: I mean first it’s a huge benefit to be able to have Wechat and to be to use it. Without it the user acquisition for accounts would be just too high because they will have to develop something. So I think our business would not exist without Wechat today. For the long-term and I think in theory it’s a risk, but it’s a risk for pretty much every consumer or customer or software company in China because we all use it and many other things. I don’t think it’s the philosophy of Wechat to kill the solution providers given that platform because I think they realized that to keep the traffic they needed to keep people being innovative on a the platform. So, just like you know when they create a channel processes, a free extra star or a free Mini program star, a free CRM Mini program. Many free software which I never used a lot actually. They do this and they don’t push too much on the solution. They do this to show the example and communicate to people what you can do with the Wechat. They are actually very happy that there are companies who develop better solutions and sell them to customers.

Matthieu: Yes. I get that the companies you work with are asking you to work outside of China I mean to be Indonesia to be Thailand. I think I guess you had this discussion with your clients because if you have a system in the in the country which is as big as China as important as China for a lot of companies you may want to have the same system elsewhere. Can you answer this question? It’s because then we go back to the question of Wechat.

Thomas: Yes so we have two of our large customers which have products in other markets and Europe actually not Asia. And of course the users in these markets choose Wechat. So, we have customized H-5 our apps. We don’t choose our seller in Mini program we use these customized interfaces which are prevalent to our purpose.

Matthieu: Okay H-5 it’s a website that that people open and use it through the internet like Safari or Chrome to scan.

Thomas: Yes.

Matthieu: I understand okay.

Thomas: It is more and more accessible I think as you know like in the most recent IOS updates you can scan QR codes like here when you take a picture with your camera.

Matthieu: Yes I found that on the new OS.

Thomas: Many similar things exist for Android so actually now the rest of the world where most smart phone users can have a native QR code scanner in their smart phones which is great. That being said there is applications that we see development in other countries are still quite a few years behind what the China affiliate is doing within these groups.

Matthieu: Interesting.

Thomas: It is very interesting that I think there is a global intuition or intuition of this kind of solutions at the global level. Then China being the first market to deploy these types of solutions and then really being the mother for the markets. You really have a sheet of power or innovation power in these very large multinational companies. With Europe or the US looking at China is doing which is very interesting.

Matthieu: Yes you feel China in your field right on tracking the products, using QR code the O2O. Actually I think you used a lot the word O2O IOT in your organization. Is that correct? You’re on the field of O2O right offline to online and in some way.

Thomas: Yes. I don’t know if O2O is a word people use outside of China. Offline to online or online to offline this is the idea of something which happen offline as you go. So these shops or these restaurants use products and have an offline relationship to them. Then you bring it online via the distribution that is transmitted. So this is the training industry.

Matthieu: This was the idea initially right? This was you idea in O2O. I remember the first time we talked about it was focusing on O2O and I feel that from the initial ID we evolved a little bit, but the constant aspect is you are still very much into O2O. How to put what’s happening offline into the the cloud, we say online makes offline right?

Thomas: Exactly. I guess the difference is that we not only take something offline to online, but we also take something that has no relationship or poor interface relationship to developer relationship. It’s because the relationship could not be direct offline. The market is too big, too many customers so it can only exist online.

Matthieu: About the business model. I’m not sure I’m very clear on the business model. Do you charge by number of scans? Do you charge by there is a retainer then number of scans, there is a trial period, I mean the test and the beginning set up I’d say. How do you work?

Thomas: Okay. So, we have three menus like basic, engage and transform. Basic you really are going to use the solution of this production, in the way which is the most compromised in the market. With engage you have access to API’s so you can complete the solution with more customized apps, you can integrate it with your architecture, the other systems your VI tools. With transforming you have access to complex models, customizable engines, RBI database, multilayered multinational organizations those types of things. So, they are the three menus and then within each you have different – depending on how big you are. So, within each of the five cases you have the maximum number of unique products created, active personnel’s, active companies and so forth.

Matthieu: I understand. The bigger you become the higher you have to go into the menu, you have to go to system. You talk about menu right? It’s clear menu—

Thomas: Basic, Engage and Transform.

Matthieu: Yes. Basic, Engage and Transform. Depending on the number products which are in circulation, depending on the scans, number of people who using it you may have to actually to go on the bigger and sub menu. On top of that you get more features and more ability to track which are unlocked by the different menus. Is that correct?

Thomas: Yes so no matter your size you want, big menu, it’s complex, business cases for you or how you integrate it into your business. Then the size will go up within each menu according to the size of the business. So, the menu is a functional dimension and the size is the other one.

Matthieu: Okay I feel that it will be for you for every client unique in some way you have software, but some way you have software. Some way it will be a bit unique for each of your clients. So I can finally understand you will have to adapt a little bit. I’m seeing your implementation that you connect with 100 APIs. Is it because your clients are different and that that comes back to this question about how you have to adapt for every client?

Thomas: Definitely this is for larger organizations. This is the industry of large certifications and which are integrated with the client’s ERP, BI tools, fortune systems, sometimes the SFA’s many of the typical system in China. Plus you may develop specific thoughts or specific interfaces and so for all of this you need APIs.

Matthieu: Okay. Is it easy to motivate the team of developers when you have to adapt your product to every client? I mean adapt to your client. I mean that’s typically the case with a lot of tech companies’ right?

Thomas: Yes I think we have this one practice we’re very strong with. It’s a lot about size compared to what’s the other set ups and difficulties. So, we have a very simple, but also very strict rule at our business. which is that the protect leader, of the wonderful delegates, the project to the client, they are forbidden from using our developers for any not only any customized developments, but even the integration the standard integrations. So, those are all the efforts to do that and to be done with our integration partners or customization partners.

Matthieu: Interesting

Thomas: Yes exactly. So the team is 100% focused on the product and roll out. Of course there is significant interaction between two teams, but the idea is that we planned a long time ago a long time and had chosen and we stick to the plan. If something is needed right now which is not independent then we edit it because we have very open response so there is always a way to build customized developments without inviting a team.

Matthieu: Awesome and interesting. Let’s go back at the start of the business. I think you have co-founders. Could you tell us more about and how you brought your co-founders?

Thomas: So I quit my job almost three years ago and very good time with them. So when I started I was working two days a week as a consultant of a website. I did some consulting products for other companies at the same time. So, I started very light with not spending money and making a little bit of money here in services and starting to develop software. Then we started to do some IT projects a little bit about two years ago using some of the platform whatever being bit of sort of custom developments at the same time. So, at that time I was by myself and the first– so we have 4 co-founders today and the first of the 4 co-founders joined around that time which was middle of 2015.

Matthieu: One year after you studied or 6 months?

Thomas: 6 months. Then we did customized sorry– we did standard products which is what is today our Back-end system basically and that system really went live in the middle of last year.

Matthieu: So, the middle of last year 2016 okay.

Thomas: Yes Q3 which is a big multi micro services very open API Backend system. Then setting certain projects based on that and focusing on ARR and that’s selling summer products since last July. Sorry I’m not very good with, it seems to be very confusing. The fourth co-founder joined us in June of 2016 and so more than one year ago. The last co-founder September so also just a little bit about one year ago. The product and the company teams are still pretty new and a little bit one year old in that respect.

Matthieu: How do we integrate them? I think it’s a big question for a lot of people who start businesses. They may start alone and they welcome also co-founders. I think it’s very difficult and never easy actually. How did you work out to integrate them?

Thomas: I don’t think it was difficult for us. I think for each of them before they joined I think at the very least we had three months of discussion and getting to know each other. So, weekly meetings and trying to understand what role they would have and what’s their duties and so forth. I think that helped a lot.

Matthieu: So, you met with you three co-founders for three months– I mean I guess it was the same time because the timeframe is different. But for three months you met with each of them every week one time.

Thomas: Yes.

Matthieu: The discussions were about what they would do, what actually you do, what’s the vision they do and how much like, it was one hour? two hours, lunchtime?

Thomas: It depends. Some of them had a lot of time from their work so it was two times two hours a week. Some of them had a busy job which was on the weekends. One of them took six weeks as possible. So, it’s full-time sixth weeks with us before taking this year. It’s we’re never very sure. It was a good fit.

Matthieu: The two you were meeting was it outside or inside the office so everyone knew they would be potential partners? How did you communicate on this with the rest of the team? Did they know the process? How did it go?

Thomas: The customers also the first of the employees because there wasn’t one. The two of them was full-time as a mission in the company. We had to be straightforward with the meeting that this was something. The last one we approached via a headhunting process.

Matthieu: Wait. You hired a headhunter to find you a co-founder?

Thomas: No exactly. So we have an in-house full-time headhunter for internal acquisition and who has purchased or access to headhunting for the business. So yes, it’s something in-house, but it’s a headhunting process like cold calls and maintaining a network of potential candidates over time.

Matthieu: It’s really big.

Thomas: Yes, it’s a big investment. I think it pays off. We used headhunters as well for other positions in the past and they could not get the same quality of candidates we had. I think it’s because they could not communicate the passion of co-founders and suburbs that when we cold call them directly. So we do have these results. In one recruitment did get, and the other didn’t work as nicely. So, I think it was a good decision.

Matthieu: We’re close to the end of podcast. How did you like podcast? How did you like this change?

Thomas: Very good. I realize to be careful on the internet. I like to go to Android—

Matthieu: Yes, may have to update a little bit.

Thomas: Anything else I should look for that you have dugout?

Matthieu: Updating your Android dot CO… linkedin is a bit confusing because its sometimes in Chinese, sometimes in English. I’m very careful on these things, but yes I will give over lunch sometime before you go for Christmas. I can do that yes. I found out. Thank you very much Thomas. I think it was a very interesting… I guess you’ve inspired a lot of people and how to find your co-founders and business model and so on with the Wechat ecosystem which is very interesting. Thank you very much Thomas.

Thomas: Thank you, Matthieu, Have a good weekend. Bye.

Matthieu: Bye-bye.