Find here the full China paradigm episode 46. Learn more about Enjoyce Zhu’s story in China and find all the details and additional links below.
Full transcript below:
MATTHIEU DAVID: Hi everyone. I’m Matthieu David, the founder of Daxue Consulting, a market research company in China and its China marketing podcast, China Paradigm and today I am with Enjoyce Zhu. You are the COO of Edenred China, a very large listed company. You have been at the start of loyalty marketing in China nearly 15 years ago. You have seen CRM strategies in China changing tremendously with regards to big data and now we even talk about social CRM in China. You post on LinkedIn about the 4.0 CRM.
What is CRM 4.0? You have been working on CRM strategies in China for enough time to see the coalition and changes in China of the customer service in China, but before we talk about that, I’d like to talk about Edenred. Edenred is a large, French group. Most French people know it because it is very involved in the prepaid card, loyalty towards employees, and restaurant tickets in Europe or France, specifically. In China, its business is slightly different. The business to get tickets for restaurants does not exist that much. You have focused much more on the CRM strategies in China, and I’d like to know more about that. Thank you very much for being with us and my first question will be about what you do now at Edenred, what you sell at Edenred, with an idea of the size or number of the clients, number of payments you are processing, number of interactions especially with clients to get an idea of what is going on in Edenred in China.
ENJOYCE ZHU: I am very happy to be able to talk to you. Indeed, you know a lot about Edenred as a group back in France. It is really a very big company. We started, in fact, the famous Ticket Restaurant business almost like half a century ago. While in China, we started this kind of business, but then very soon we realized that probably it was not the right product and that’s why when I joined this company at that time, we had this prepaid business while we were not confident about if it’s going to be profitable in this market. This is why at that point in time we’d like to introduce something new to the market of customer service in China. I was the first one to develop this service of CRM strategies in China. Today in China, we have around 100 employees and are servicing 20 key clients, for which we have a full team of accounts, IT, technology, and consulting. We also have another business unit, which is the product targeting the small SME restaurants. For that part, we have around 30 clients already.
MATTHIEU DAVID: You said it is divided into two parts. One is the service of CRM strategies in China, and the other one is?
ENJOYCE ZHU: All our products and services are surrounding the core, CRM strategies in China. We used to have the customization service of CRM strategies in China along with technology solution, consulting service, and ongoing account service. Starting from last year, we decided to move to another part, which is targeting SME clients, because apparently they also need CRM strategies in China while they don’t need other comprehensive services like customization or consulting.
MATTHIEU DAVID: I see. That is the 30 clients you were talking about?
ENJOYCE ZHU: Yes.
MATTHIEU DAVID: Going back to what you wrote on your LinkedIn profile, CRM 4.0. Can you tell us what is 1.0 for CRM strategies in China? You have been in the business of customer service in China for 15 years. How do you define simple steps of CRM strategies in China?
ENJOYCE ZHU: CRM 4.0 is exactly unique to China, which probably has not been heard about or prevalent in the rest of the world yet. Let’s go back to 1.0 of CRM strategies in China. So at the 1.0 time, CRM strategies in China start more in hotels and airline industries when there is a need for customer service in China. CRM 1.0 is more like a call centre. Apparently, these are all from the developed markets like the US and Europe. 2.0 of CRM strategies in China is more like we can do better with this customer service and these big data in China we have collected. It’s not only IT and teams of customer service in China involved.
We also have marketing teams involved to say, “We have one million customers. Maybe we don’t have to service each one of them in the same way, because the class is very different.” That was a time when segmentation of CRM strategies in China and the customer tearing started like gold card or silver card holder. That is 2.0 and still the US market and the European market are dominant, because this is where all the hotels or airlines have developed a very comprehensive, mature loyalty programme around it. Every best practice was importing from the American or the European market, but then gradually in 2004, new retail in China is growing super-fast in China and we started to have social media and big data in China. 3.0 started in 2010 in China. At that time, the trend of customer service in China has been switched. From an agency point of view, I don’t see any best practice that is going to work for the customer service in China anymore. We have to create our own CRM strategy given the roaming environment of new retail in China.
MATTHIEU DAVID: 3.0 is linked to e-commerce in China?
ENJOYCE ZHU: Yes. At that time, everybody was talking about O2O or reverse O2O like online to offline, offline to online, but in the end, everybody is talking about the Omnichannel because it is a new channel. It is not like cannibalizing the old channel, but more like providing a better experience to engage Chinese consumers. Then in 2018, 4.0 of the CRM strategies in China starts to take the lead. Thanks to the 4G network, smart phones, the WeChat, the e-commerce, all the big data in China we used to spend a lot of time, energy or budget to connect, they are so easy to be connected. In the new economy, big data in China is the essence of the company and the brand. If you don’t deal with the big data in China or you don’t make sure that you make full use of the big data in China, the value of these data or your assets is going to be depreciated and not appreciated.
The older data is so easily connected, and almost everyone can have access to the insights of big data in China. We are not talking about, “I will use my consulting team to work on the fancy BI tool or the best modeling of big data in China to share with your results.” That can be only understood from the corporate level. Now we are talking about the users in the frontline and our sales team. The sales team doesn’t have a university degree. They are just high school graduates, but they have a smartphone where you can also push the insights of big data in China for them to see, “I was doing good on my sales yesterday. What am I going to do today? When a customer comes to my store, can I recognize her? Can I know what shall I do to her?” Customer service in China is not only recalling her name but also understanding what products they need to recommend to her. All the big data in China at the 4.0 period is very exciting. It is available at the fingertips of everybody, not only for the corporate level in a meeting room of the headquarters.
MATTHIEU DAVID: When you say the 4.0 of CRM strategies in China compared to the 3.0, the difference is that the 3.0 of CRM strategies in China was divided into laptops, mobile and shops and it was hard to interconnect these different relationships you could have with the same clients. But with the phone, which follows me at the shop, at home and where I interact with online social media and WeChat, you can actually identify me through different touchpoints with your brand. Is it correct?
ENJOYCE ZHU: This is also part of the experience from the consumer side of customer service in China. In the end, all the CRM strategies in China is engaging Chinese consumers. The 4.0 of customer service in China is indeed what you are describing. It’s all seamless, no matter in your e-shop, an e-commerce website, your social media account, or your store.
MATTHIEU DAVID: The key differentiation now or the key technological aspect is the unique identity of the phone? We can advertise and know which phone is linked. S this what you are talking about?
ENJOYCE ZHU: Not specifically a device, but more of like a unique ID across all the channels.
MATTHIEU DAVID: To use this unique ID, do you define your unique ID or do you work with a company like Alibaba and Tencent?
ENJOYCE ZHU: As we are the specialists of CRM strategies in China, we help clients to design this unique ID so that it can be recognized across different channels.
MATTHIEU DAVID: Alibaba or Tencent as the providers of the unique ID is like Google and Facebook in the west. It is very blurry. You don’t really know where they are going to target to get information. By defining yourself, you are able to master much more in defining the identity of a client. Am I correct?
ENJOYCE ZHU: You are exactly correct. Because it is also something we see in the trend in 2019 of CRM strategies in China. In the past 2 years, we can see that Alibaba and Tencent have really repositioned themselves as a platform economy with all the big data in China they have to be able to monetize all these big data in China. They have their own, close ecosystem to store all their big data in China on their platforms. However, when they approach a brand, if the brand is not clear head enough, they won’t need to choose one ecosystem. In fact, that ecosystem is kind of blurry to them because the trend is that all the brands, no matter big or small, have realized that if they only rely on a third-party platform and don’t build up their own database, it is going to be very risky.
MATTHIEU DAVID: If a company wants to work with you. what do they need to provide you and build before working with you to make sure that it makes sense to build strong CRM strategies in China with you? One of the things they may have to do is to get a DMP or that is something you provide? Should your clients come with a CSB that identifies phone number or e-mail or should they give you access to all the social media they have and you put a peak sale or cookies to track them? Could you tell us more of how you onboard a client?
ENJOYCE ZHU: We don’t pre-call big retail clients a lot of conditions, because every client has its own different internal or external ecosystems of big data in China. If the client is pretty big and has a lot of customized requirements for customer service in China, we will send our consulting team to sit with them to understand its ecosystem and ask them questions like “Do you have your own retail stores or use a POS system? Do you have an e-commerce platform in China? Is it your own brand website or a third-party e-commerce marketplace? Do you have social media like WeChat official account or WeChat mini program?”
We need to clearly identify all the channels to understand their CRM strategies in China. Do they want two Omnichannel or think JD is where their top clients here in China are? We can connect for them, but JD or Tmall does sales for them more like using them as an advertising slot or the online sales coming through their own brand e-commerce website. Different clients have their own different brand positioning for their retail stores and e-commerce platforms. We need to sit together with them to understand their own different ecosystems of customer service in China and positions so that we are able to help them do the interface of CRM strategies in China. In the end, the ideal situation is that we build an essential consumer platform big data in China, which interacts with all different channels in real-time.
MATTHIEU DAVID: So you have a central platform to collect big data in China and information and another platform to engage Chinese consumers and different media.
Is it possible to be independent currently in this world? Tmall, for instance, will not accept that you put some code to take their big data in China out of the platform. Tencent would have similar regulations. Big data in China you can extract from the T-Mall will be mostly about the existing clients if they mention what they did in the shop and also their history with the company. You may not be able actually to extract big data in China on people who you have not dealt with. Could you tell us more about how you work with those platforms, which are a bit more closed like Tmall, Tencent, Alibaba, Tencent and so on and still keep independent?
ENJOYCE ZHU: Tencent and Alibaba have different positioning on big data in China. Tencent is more open, while Alibaba is a bit more closed. We have two ways to work with Alibaba and Tmall. When we work with super-brands, they have a deal with Alibaba to use its big data in China and they have an interface with its own platform for CRM strategies in China, so we connect very easily. Another way is that as ERS, we have our own SCV certificate so that we get access to their big data in China, but the older data we access has to be about the consumers who have already agreed to join or give their information to this brand on Tmall. We don’t collect any big data in China, which are from random prospects or from someone who is just clicking the information of this brand. This is what Alibaba has valued so much. No matter what kind of program they run, they are not going to give away this kind of big data in China.
MATTHIEU DAVID: Could you describe the different channels in Omni-channels? We think that offline and online as a first division. Is it what it means?
ENJOYCE ZHU: Of course, online and offline is the biggest Omni-channel, but what we are now emphasizing on Omni-channel is echoing what Jack Ma was talking about, the new retail in China. New retail in China is how we are able to operate offline stores like online stores. Here, big data in China has played a critical role to enable this kind of digital customer service in China even in retail stores.
MATTHIEU DAVID: How do you collect big data in China in stores? Do you have specific examples? We know some technology like bitcoin, which is making it possible to know where people are, the map and the traffic in the shopping mall in a similar fashion in China. Is it a thing that is really used or it is still the entry fee, which is more of something to show off or a topic to talk about, but actually is not very used? Could you tell us the real status now of in-store data?
ENJOYCE ZHU: We are still leveraging the existing resources or what is unique to the in-store experience. We leverage the sales associates in the store or the sale promoter in the store to engage Chinese consumers by using their sales promoters and own mobile phones to do the recruitment. I have my own digital QR code as my name card. A consumer scans my QR code, and then he or she is registered immediately. In the back office, the side of big data in China recognizes it like, “It’s me. You recruited a new customer named Matthew today.”
MATTHIEU DAVID: It’s mainly still interacting with a salesperson or the associate in the shop to engage Chinese consumers through the phone, so you could make sure there is a point of synchronisation with the big data in China. Some clients have asked us, “How do you deal with WeChat?” All salespeople in the shop are using their own WeChat. If they go to the competitor or somewhere else, they will push for the product and become a small KOL by influencing people. In some way, this salesperson becomes important again. It is not linked only to a brand. He is building his own community and relationship. How do you enter this question because there must be clients that ask you this question?
ENJOYCE ZHU: The way we deal with that is not preventing them to use the WeChat. It is more of how I leverage your practices and make sure that all the interactions to engage Chinese consumers to belong to the company and brand, but not the salesperson. We have developed a product called Smart Inchain, which is targeting the retail or sales staff, either in APP format, on the WeChat or a mini-program. All the sales promoters have communications with their customers, which happen through this application.
MATTHIEU DAVID: How does it work exactly because people are so used to WeChat? If someone is asking me my contact, I don’t even give my name card anymore, because I am in China and I am so used to WeChat, so I am scanning their QR codes. I believe that sales people will have the same action when thinking about sharing contacts. Do you force them to go to Smart Inchain or Smart Inchain is integrating with WeChat? How does it work?
ENJOYCE ZHU: If it is on a WeChat mini-program, I open a Smart Inchain, and my personal QR code is there. If you are my new customer, I ask the Smart Inchain if he or she is a member of our brand. If not, maybe this customer can join today and has discounts or benefits right away. It will be simple for him or her to just scan my QR code and become a member very easily by just binding something very quickly or just a cell phone number. Next time he or she comes into the store and says, “I am already a member,” so I will ask, “Is it possible for you to give me your cell phone number so I can check what kind of offers are available for you today?” It’s most likely that the customers will be happy to give me their cell phone number. I check from my mini program to see, “This is Matthew, who was here one month ago. He bought an eye cream, which will be replenished in two weeks. Today my job is to recommend replenishment of the eye cream.” If there is a Smart Inchain connected with our powerful model of big data in China, then the recommendation engine will also recommend, “Matthew is a French in Shanghai who is also interested in fragrance.” So my recommendation list number two is a fragrance.
MATTHIEU DAVID: This instant Smart Inchain is a system that is going to be deployed and used on different social media or apps, which are used, could be WeChat or another one to collect big data in China in order to avoid the salesperson to use his own identity. Does it mean that when a sales company is adding through Smart Inchain, it is not adding the personal identity of the WeChat or it’s adding both? Is it adding the personal identity and the client identity and the WeChat of the salesperson or it is closed within Smart Inchain?
ENJOYCE ZHU: It’s closed within Smart Inchain.
MATTHIEU DAVID: How do you engage Chinese consumers? Is it going to pop-up some messages from the mini-program on WeChat?
ENJOYCE ZHU: If you are my member, you would like to ask some questions, and we are actually not connected personally. You can ask questions directly on the brands and WeChat official accounts, and then it will automatically direct you to the person who recruited you and is serving you. From the Smart Inchain application, I will be able to answer you back on the official WeChat account, and then we can do the dialogue.
MATTHIEU DAVID: You keep the relationship personal by redirecting to the person who added you initially in the store. Is the message going to pop up to the salesperson saying that, “This client is talking to you” and then he or she can answer? If I see some salespeople in shops of your clients who are using their phones, they are not playing games. They are probably answering some messages to some clients.
ENJOYCE ZHU: Yes, exactly.
MATTHIEU DAVID: And they use their own phone?
ENJOYCE ZHU: Yes, exactly. A lot of skincare brands have a reservation or invitation, and it can also be done through this way. A customer makes a reservation on the WeChat official account, then I receive the reservation, and it’s on my calendar. I know that on May 23rd at 10 AM, my client, Matthew, is coming for a 30-minute consultation or a hand care massage. It’s also all the tasks to service my customers on my Smart Inchain application. Probably today, I also have ten calls to do to engage Chinese consumers who are having their birthday or I will remind them, “Your points will be expired, so come to collect your gift.”
MATTHIEU DAVID: Very interesting. Because I always feel that in the shop, sometimes the efficiency is very low. People are waiting, and so on. It is a way to engage Chinese consumers and call them when they have time. You mentioned about the personal relationship, and the person who added the client is going to answer, but does it mean that you don’t use chatbots in China, which can be based on single answers like Q&A?
ENJOYCE ZHU: Very good question. In fact, if you as a customer are initiating the question, the first level is that if you are already a member, this question will be re-directed to the one who recruited you or who is serving you. If I don’t answer within a timeframe, it will be answered by the chatbot automation. Because we wanted the consumers, especially the members, to feel that I am personally served by somebody. The salespeople also take the opportunity as providing high-quality customer service in China and also upsell opportunity.
MATTHIEU DAVID: Interesting. Because most of the time, it is the reverse. You begin with the chatbot, and when it gets too complicated, and the chatbot cannot answer it, it will direct it to a personal relationship. Here, it is different. You are first in contact with someone with you. If he is busy, then you are directed to a chatbot. What’s your opinion of chatbots for customer service in China? Are they really smart now? Are we at a stage where a chatbot can be smart?
ENJOYCE ZHU: To be honest, I think the chatbots are moving very fast, so maybe somewhere some companies are already using very smart chatbots. In the end, what I still believe as an expert in loyalty marketing in China is that people need people’s customer service in China. If you are already our brand member, you deserve a personal customer service in China. That’s our belief. If you are recognized as a member, we wanted to service you as a member. To be honest, from my personal experience, even if I have a gold card of China Eastern Airlines, each time when I make the call to re-direct through all the automatic, you press 1, press 2 and all of this process is making me crazy. I don’t like this. I believe that for the high-touch service industries, we still need this personalized customer service in China. Because I am the one who recruited you and is serving you, I know you and then my answer will be mostly suitable for you.
MATTHIEU DAVID: I saw some vocal chatbots used by some banks calling you for commercial reasons. The voice is extremely genuine and real. The answers are quite accurate when you talk to them. What’s your opinion on those kinds of AI formulation to engage Chinese consumers? Is it something you integrate to reach out to clients? I understand that to answer questions, you don’t advise chatbots or artistic simulation, but in terms of re-connecting with clients, are those chatbots a good idea?
ENJOYCE ZHU: In fact, when you are doing this kind of sales, especially for telesales, it can be all of these. Even you have a human to do the call, they are following the scripts, and the robot is following. I believe this is very efficient. Think about that even a human is following the scripts, sometimes they make mistakes. If I use a robot who is exactly following the scripts, because of the way of doing the outbound sales, it’s only following the scripts. When somebody is asking this, and what is your answer? What is your answer when he is asking B or when he is asking something that you don’t know, what is the answer? In fact, it’s not that difficult to build the model of customer service in China. I believe this is the right way to do it and it will be very efficient, saving a lot of manpower for the telesales.
MATTHIEU DAVID: You mentioned many examples in the B2C. Do you have some examples of CRM strategies in China in B2B businesses?
ENJOYCE ZHU: For CRM strategies in China nowadays, it’s not only B2C but also the business model B2B2C. For example, tires don’t sell directly to consumers. They rely on their distributors, dealers, and retail shops to sell to the consumers. How are they are to really enable their dealer staff at those shops to engage Chinese consumers and then also empower them, and do targeted campaigns? To call-back or activate their customer database is what all these B2B2C brands are working on. We are providing not only the back-end CRM strategies in China but also the dealer shop tools for the dealers to have their own small database and leverage the big data in China. Michelin has collected it to provide the insights to the dealer such as, “Why is my business good or bad? Is it because of my new customers or old customers? What is the share of business for the different services? What is my benchmark with my neighbors? If my business of old customers are not so good, what should I do?”
There are recommended intelligent campaigns for them to improve their KPIs, but the campaign design is what we helped Michelin design based on their big data in China. The campaign can be as simple as recalling sleeping customers, who have been here one year ago, but not recently with an average basket of 1,000. We just did this campaign and enabled the dealer to just click on their own cell phones and say, “I want this campaign to wake up my customers.” For one dealership, they send out like 200 SMS and get one customer back with 800-RMB basket purchases or transactions. 200 SMS is only 20 RMB. For them, big data in China has been able to make sure their operation can be more digital and intelligent.
MATTHIEU DAVID: You just mentioned SMS. It is interesting because we don’t even think any more sometimes about sending SMS. Could you tell us if there is a different touchpoint that you are creating in your CRM strategies in China? Are you integrating posting mails to say now it is time to send an e-mail, a physical card to someone? You have SMS, WeChat, and e-mails. I don’t know what you are thinking about e-mails in China. Can you tell us the different touchpoints you can have?
ENJOYCE ZHU: In fact, we are able to integrate all the touchpoints. It is more like the unique positioning of this brand of how they engage Chinese consumers. Why we are using SMS for Michelin is because we are servicing Michelin Tire Plus. It’s not only tires, but also like fast fitting, maintenance and this kind of service. Once a car is in the shop doing a fast fitting, customers won’t wait until everything is done because they don’t feel comfortable sitting there. They think they’d better get a coffee next door. They leave my cell phone number there to call them when it’s done. For customer registration or customer information collection, a cell phone is very simple and very easy to get. This cell phone has become the unique ID of Michelin customers linked with their car plate.
MATTHIEU DAVID: Phone number is better than WeChat because WeChat can be on mute, right?
ENJOYCE ZHU: WeChat is a complementary channel. Think it as a car owner, because usually, you don’t go to Michelin WeChat to see like what is the tire. The content itself is not so interesting. The involvement is pretty low. Of course, Michelin wanted to have its own WeChat, but then the account itself is not so excited. The cell phone has become the primary contact information. For e-mail, everybody is saying, “Who has an e-mail address? Who is using e-mail?” Our top clients Sephora is using a lot of EDM for its CRM strategies in China because EDM is the way to carry a lot of information about beauty products and information.
MATTHIEU DAVID: I have been in China for 9 years, and e-mails in China have always been a mystery. People were not receiving e-mails. It went in separate boxes, and the promotions were in separate boxes of the 163 counterparts. It is very difficult to reach out through a simple newsletter or simple system of e-mail in China. I see that the opening rate of e-mails is lower. What is your feedback on this?
ENJOYCE ZHU: For me, it depends on different brands because EDM in Sephora works well, and I think no matter if it is EDM, SMS, or WeChat messages, it is all about content relevance. All the EDM we send for Sephora is personalized and powered by our recommendation engine. It is saying like, “Hey, Mr. Matthew, it’s Mother’s Day. We have this and that theme for your mother or your wife.” Then there is one line of personal product recommendation, which is unique to you and not to anybody else because we know you and we have all your big data in China. We look your big data in China to see what is generally interested in this kind of segment. It is more about content relevance. We have tested and see it is the personal recommendation message. The opening rate has been improved a lot, but of course, we see the opening rate as the conversion rate. No matter what the channel is, it is more about the relevance. If it isn’t relevant, even if it’s WeChat, you won’t really care about WeChat.
MATTHIEU DAVID: Interesting. Thank you very much for your time. It’s for nearly one hour. Do you have anything else you’d like to add on?
ENJOYCE ZHU: What we have already talked about is more on the big brands, their CRM strategies in China and how they are trying to become more and more competitive by unlocking all the big data in China they have collected. But another point is that in China, we see a lot ofsmall and medium enterprises who have the need to be able to benefit from the digital operation of big data in China. That’s why I talked in the beginning that from last year, we focus on streamlining all our products and offerings to become really light so that even a small restaurant is able to benefit from good CRM strategies in China.
MATTHIEU DAVID: How simple can you make it? I didn’t want to talk about other easy solutions from the west like Upstart, MailChimp, ActiveCampaign. You open an account, plug with your website or ID from Facebook. It is very simple. When it is tailor-made and a bit more sophisticated and adapted, in terms of serving SME, you have to make it more standard and simple. How simple is it to activate the solution?
ENJOYCE ZHU: Thanks to the WeChat mini-program, we made everything in WeChat mini program. If a restaurant has one store, the store owner has access to see all the big data in China collected. When consumers walk into the store, they can scan the QR code from the mini-program and become a member and order their food, check out and pay. They leave their messages at the end, “We want to become a member of the restaurant.” The store owner is going to see, “Who came to my store? Who ordered what and who was paying? How much? If I wanted to do a campaign, I just click on I want to recruit new customers.” I click on the campaign on social viral coupon sharing.
When the customer receives this coupon of referring to 5 friends, he or she will get a big discount. So they bring friends, and the owner says, “I wanted to increase the basket size.” I click the basket-size increase campaign, and then it will send messages to all my repeat customers. It’s all automated, and all the campaign ideas are from what we have been servicing in the past years to make sure that it can be streamlined as simply as the one-click campaign for the store owner. It’s all WeChat mini program ecosystem from the consumer side to the store owner side.
MATTHIEU DAVID: What are the next steps in terms of CRM strategies in China? We are talking about facial recognition and you mentioned that actually it is not used yet on a massive scale, but what is next? What do you have in mind for 2020?
ENJOYCE ZHU: For the next year, I think there are new technologies coming up. No matter what kind of technologies are coming up, it is making CRM strategies in China more accessible. For big companies, it is accessible to the frontline staff. For small companies, it is making it accessible for them to have their own CRM strategies in China. Before, they have to rely on Dianping, Ele.me. They have to pay pretty handsomely to get traffic, but that traffic, in fact, doesn’t belong to them. If they wanted to convert the traffic to their own assets, they need their own tools for CRM strategies in China. That’s why more CRM strategies in China and the digital operation of big data in China have become really accessible to SMEs and also to the sales staff for the big companies.
MATTHIEU DAVID: Democratisation of CRM strategies in China, more adapted CRM strategies in China, corporate CRM strategies in China are more like a trend than a technological breakthrough, which could take more time to be mainstreamed. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it so much. It was very interesting, very insightful with precise examples so thank you very much for sharing. I hope you enjoyed it.
ENJOYCE ZHU: Thank you very much.
MATTHIEU DAVID: Thanks. Bye-bye, everyone. Thanks for listening.
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