In this episode of China paradigm, Matthieu David, CEO of Daxue Consulting, catches up with Carol Liu, who managed up to 5 coffee shops she co-created with her husband. Liu’s Coffee chain “Big Sur” is serving 500 coffee cups a day and emphasizes high quality, using top-notch coffee machines and bean-grinding machinery from Italy. Liu explains why she closed 2 shops and focused and deep-dived on 3. Liu goes in-depth on her experience as an entrepreneur in China: how much was the initial investment, how much in commissions do third-party delivery services like meituan, dada or eleme take, and how it is dependent on the weather, and how not having the right business license slowed her shop growth down? Liu is also assessing the success of Luckin Coffee and other players in the game.
Carol Liu is our longtime friend and we have already had the pleasure of interviewing her about a year ago. Then she shared with us the reasons why she started a business in an occupied Food and Beverage industry, the concept of “Big Sur” Coffee chain, the secret of how to become noticeable among many competitors on the market and much more.
China paradigm is a podcast is sponsored by Daxue consulting where we interview successful entrepreneurs about their businesses in China. You can access all available episodes from the China paradigm Youtube page.
Matthieu David: Hello everyone. Today I am with Carol Liu, the co-founder of Big Sur Coffee shops. So, you have created a company few years ago and you are managing coffee shops in Shanghai and obviously today actually you are going to talk about it to us. I know you because you used to study at Conde Nast Center of Fashion and Design, when I was teaching consumer journey, consumer preferences and during or after your studies, you started with your husband, that’s why I was saying ‘co-founder’, maybe there are more of you. Coffee shop chain, because you have more than one, and we already talked about your business one year ago on a blog, and it was very interesting. Actually, the article where we went in-depth in the numbers of managing your business of investment and very detail, very down to earth, it was very useful actually for the audience and people liked it a lot. So, it’s one year ago, it’s good to have some update, and thank you Carol for being with us.
Carol Liu: Hello everybody. I am Carol, now I am running Big Sur Coffee shop. Now we have three shops in Shanghai, two are in the downtown area. The other in Pudong area, it’s very close to the office building. Now we are running very stable, but the competition now for the recent one year is very, very fierce. So, we feel a lot of pressure in running of the Big Sur coffee now actually.
Matthieu: You told me before one year ago that you have another coffee shop in another city. Was I correct?
Carol: Yes, we closed that shop already
Matthieu: Okay. Which city was it in?
Carol: It’s in Hefei, Anhui province.
Matthieu: Okay just to talk about this experience of being in Hefei, did you close because the market was not mature enough? Because, I guess the rent was cheaper, the salaries were cheaper so is it the market reason why you close it, was it difficult to manage?
Carol: Yes, I think on one hand it is the market reason. The market is not mature there. They cannot appreciate the very good quality coffee. It is mainly the branding that affects their decision. Maybe Starbucks…. they will go to Starbucks to have a cup of coffee, but for the small… independent, this kind of small coffee, they will not try. I think the consumers, the market there is not mature… and for the other reason, I think the location I chose there is not mature as well. So, for both reasons it is not successful of that shop. So, we closed may be one year ago.
Matthieu: Okay. How cheaper was it to manage it by the way? In terms of rent, in terms of salary, is it much cheaper in Shanghai or basically was it similar or it was….
Carol: I’d say in general definitely it’s much cheaper than in Shanghai. The rent is much cheaper and the salary there is cheap as well. So, in general I think its 30-40% cheaper than in Shanghai.
Matthieu: Okay and the prices you were charging the consumers were they same or cheaper?
Carol: Yes, they were same. Same price.
Matthieu: Okay, so same prices but lower cost you could imagine to make more profit but basically you cannot make enough sales so that was the market issue.
Carol: Yes, the sales cannot reach the point to balance.
Matthieu: I see. Talking about the businesses in Shanghai, so you have three locations, I know one is in Mengzi Lu one is close to People Square and the other one in Pudong. So, all of them are close to offices…?
Carol: Sorry the other is in Jiashan Road, in the French Concession.
Matthieu: You said Pudong
Carol: Pudong. One is in Pudong, one is in Jiashan road, and one is on the Mengzi road. Oh yes, we had one in People Square but we closed as well.
Matthieu: I see. How long did you open the one in People Square?
Carol: Maybe… also around one year ago.
Matthieu: One year, okay
Carol: We closed it last October.
Matthieu: I see. So basically, you get a commitment for one year and you see if it goes well or not and then you decide to continue or not continue
Matthieu: One year is difficult to see if it goes well or not.
Carol: Yes, we try to sustain one year but it depends on the rent. If the rent is very low, maybe we can continue more time to wait and see, but if the rent is too high, we cannot afford then the time will be shorter.
Matthieu: In terms of size now, how many customers do you serve…let in one shop on demand for one day or one year? Do you have some metrics on that? How many cups of coffee basically are you delivering?
Carol: For Mengzi Road every day we deliver about 250 on weekday…on weekends it’s about 150-200.
Matthieu: I see, so not that much of a cycle… you’re still on the same range and on Mengzi road you are very close to offices like Under Armor and some other offices. Is your main clientele business people who go after lunch or during break taking a coffee?
Carol: Peak time is actually it’s in the morning. It’s around 8:30 to 10:30 and that is the peak time. In the lunch, it’s okay. In the 1 pm to 2:30 there is also a lot of consumers come in but not as much as in the morning.
Matthieu: Okay. How do you manage peak hours, because I feel that’s the most difficult aspect of managing restaurants or coffee shop is to manage peak hours… morning, after lunch… do you have people coming for part-time? Is it easy to get people coming for part-time? For two hours… during peak hours? How do you work in those peak hours, firstly the management of people and secondly the machine, you have one-two machine, but when so many people come, they have to wait and people don’t like to wait. Do you pre-order do you… how… what’s your way of working with peak hours.
Carol: We don’t have part time job, we only have full time… because in part time jobs, the workers they don’t recognize your brand, they don’t recognize your service standard, and for team work they might be not very efficient to be a team member. So, we only have full time job, a full-time worker. For a full time, worker, we arrange the working schedule for different people. Because the peak time is starting around 8 o’clock so may be the first person comes at 7.30 and the second and third people come at 8 o’clock to serve for our consumers.
Matthieu: I see.
Carol: Yes, and they work until 2.30 and then they go off, only one people left in the shop after the…
Matthieu: after 2:30?
Carol: Yes. We use this kind of way to manage it.
Matthieu: Three people then?
Carol: No, in the peak time we have four actually. Because now we have pour over coffee, it’s kind of you know… hand whip it’s not machine-based coffee… so we have to arrange another people to be responsible for this pour over coffee.
Matthieu: Okay I understand. In terms… yes
Carol: On the other hand, we continue to strengthen the working efficiency on making coffee and especially when there is three or four people work together… which one to do what… to be very high efficient in the whole team, so this area… we continue to strengthen on this.
Matthieu: I see. Have you thought about a way to pre-order for clients? For example, they are in the office and they can pre-order and come and pick the coffee. Have you thought about… also delivery at offices? Do you offer those services to deliver?
Carol: Yes, we have. Actually, now you can use our wechat…wechat account to get it delivered. You can pre-order on the wechat, and then you can go to our store to pick up at a certain time. But this technology, we are now using is not very mature now…but already some consumers are using this.
Matthieu: Okay. We’ll go back on technology later on. You talked about the size of business, I guess we have a good idea of the business you are managing and to try as well new locations on… as you said People’s Square and Hefei. I went one time to your coffee shop, actually at Mengzi road and I found out…I think early this year, it was closed for like two or three months… Could you tell us more about what happened and you told me that it was a business license renewal? Could you tell us what was the reason that it take so long…first? Secondly, how did you manage it? Do you still need to pay the rent? Do you still need to pay to people? Do you still need to do all this and you had to take off your logo… you had to take off so many things and re-put on it…? Could you explain the context and how you manage it?
Carol: You know it’s a very difficult time for us. Yes, because for Mengzi Road Road actually we don’t have the business license of drink… of this shop. So, when the government is scrutining on this, they will ask us to close the door because we have no proper business license. In this case when you have to face the government, you have to do whatever they ask you to do. So, we have to close for two to three months… In the meantime, we asked our owner, the shop owner to help us, to you know to negotiate… to get the business license. I think fortunately, because the owner has some relationships in the government, so even though it was very difficult, but in the end, he helped us to get the business license
Matthieu: Is it hard to get it?
Carol: Yes, it is very hard if there is no relationship with the government it is… I think it will take much, much longer to get the license or you may not get license.
Carol: Yes, it’s very sensitive.
Matthieu: But how did you… so you created before with not the right license? You had a license of a shop selling products, but not shops selling drinks?
Carol: Yes. You have to be the license to sell drinks, if you actually sell drinks.
Matthieu: Okay and what did you need to offer to them in terms of proof that you can run it? What do you need to do for them to trust you that you can run such a business and get a license? What do you need to prove?
Carol: You mean proof to…?
Matthieu: Do you need to invest a certain amount of money to get the license? Do you need show that you have all the certifications? Do you need to pass some exams to get such a license or you just process in time and so on?
Carol: Actually, it’s a very complicated process. Because the process is mainly handled by the shop owners, I am not very involved in this. It’s kind of like you have to… how to say…. I don’t know the details of the process, but I can say that it’s very complicated and it’s very difficult.
Matthieu: Okay, was it about security as well? Was it about security? Safety? How clean the place is?
Carol: Yes, for that area you have to prove your drinks and your process to make drinks are very clean. You have to prove to them for this area
Matthieu: Got it. So, did you have to still pay the people you had employed? Did you still have to pay the rent?
Carol: Yes sure. During that period, we have to manage, arrange our people to our other shops. Even though our other shops don’t need this man power, I will still have to arrange them to work and pay salary to them. We cannot just fire them because it’s not fair to them and also when we are back to our business, we still need them to serve our consumers.
Matthieu: Okay. About the quality control, you talked about business license. We’ve seen in other shops, restaurant coffee shops, the smiling face, the face which is not smiling about how clean the place is? How good the product is? Do you see those criteria’s in the restaurant? The face… the…
Carol: Yes, yes….
Matthieu: Do you have to go through this kind of regulation test.
Carol: Yes, actually we have to.
Matthieu: How does it work? I never understood how the counter is working? How do you move from one stand out to another one? What are the criteria?
Carol: Actually, the government people will come to your shop and they will check out the whole shop, the back side and also the kitchen area and then they will decide which face they will give you. I don’t know the actual standard about it, it depends on…our shop gets the smile face. It’s not key for you; it doesn’t seem to be key for you.
Carol: Yes. Sure.
Matthieu: It’s not key.
Carol: It’s not key actually. Yes, it’s not very key, but to get a smiling face is very good for us, but I don’t think the consumers perceive this very carefully.
Matthieu: Okay. So, in terms of…you talked a bit about, a bit about third parties, like some tech’s report you got. Could you tell us more so in terms of how much you use tech into your shop? I went several times to your shop, and in the past, you were using a personal account to invoice in WeChat, and now it seems that you have a device to scan the QR code on WeChat. It seems like you go through the more common way of invoicing people than the personal account in the past. Could you explain us why it took so much time for you to move from… on WeChat…? Because on Alipay you already ready for long time I feel… but from WeChat why did you hesitate so long to move from personal account to actually use a company account, and invoice with the device to scan the QR code? Was it a problem of fees? Was it a problem of regulations?
Carol: Actually, there are a lot of reasons. One reason is that at first, we use Cashersoft company. It’s the provider of the cashier system. That company did not support WeChat, so, for that reason we continued to use Alipay. But we find that more and more of our consumers are asking to use WeChat account, so we changed the cashier provider to another provider. That provider supported both Alipay and WeChat account.
The other reason is that… actually this is the main reason for the WeChat. The other reason… now actually WeChat, you have to use the company account and Alipay actually you can use the personal account or you can use the company account. For us, because our goal is to run this brand to be a very professional, to grow bigger and bigger… we want to run our company and our brand to be a very professional company, so we decided to transfer to company account, not to personal account. But you know the tax, the VAT is quite different. We have to pay the tax for the government.
Matthieu: What is the VAT tax? Is it 17%?
Carol: No, it’s 6%.
Matthieu: 6% because you are in the service business. I see.
Matthieu: Okay, actually we didn’t talk about your other location, Mengzi Road, so it’s the biggest, is it the more successful one? And then you have another one in the French Concession and then Pudong… but totally speaking, every day you are serving like 500 cups everyday totally? Like 200- 250 on Mengzi Road and…?
Carol: Yes around 500 every day.
Matthieu: About 500 okay. So how do you integrate technology into your business? So, people can pay with WeChat, people can pay with Alipay so with Weixin pay and Zhifubao and do you go further with technology? You have implemented pre order, you have implemented delivery to people, how do you implement those technology into your shop? Because I guess you don’t have your own people to deliver, you work with third parties. So how do implement those different services? And how do you work with those third parties which deliver your coffee shop? How much margin do they take you? What’s the cost of working with them? Do they pay you quickly or do they pay you 30 days after? Could you tell us a bit, some ideas of how to work with them?
Carol: Now for the third parties we cooperate with Ele.me and Maiduan and also, we’re running our own WeChat account to delivery… for Ele.me and Meituan actually they charge a lot. They charge around 15 to 18 percent of the charge, that is pretty… very high so we prefer our consumers to use our own platform to deliver the… to order the products. In that way, in order to encourage them to order through our own platform, every time they consume, they can have points and the points can be used as some cash.
Matthieu: Okay I understand, but how do you deliver then? You have someone from your coffee shop to deliver then…?
Carol: No. We work with a third party called DaDa.
Matthieu: And the business model is different then? You pay them how much? It’s cheaper than…?
Carol: Dada it’s not… it’s different from Ele.me and Meituan, it’s only a delivery company not a platform, but Ele.me and Meituan, is a platform and they can also help you to deliver, but Dada is only a company that provides delivering service so…
Matthieu: Okay so each one is finding clients for you, but Dada is not finding clients for you. Dada is only providing the service of delivery and you pay them as pay order you don’t pay them as a commission, right? You pay them pay order. Okay how much do you pay for pay order?
Carol: Yes. Actually, it’s very lot. If it’s raining. Yes, it’s raining, it’s high may be for poor order they charge 6UN, 7UN, 8UN, 9UN that is very possible but in the normal days in the normal condition it’s around 4 UN to 5 UN per order.
Matthieu: Okay so 4UN is like 0.5 Euros for the order to deliver anywhere. Anywhere in Shanghai?
Carol: No. It’s actually around within 2kms.
Matthieu: Okay. I understood.
Carol: If beyond 2km actually we don’t suggest our consumers to order because the coffee taste is not good.
Matthieu: Okay, so you say like 4 Renminbi, and your average price should be about 20- 25 Renminbi?
Carol: 20. Yes
Matthieu: 20….The average! Okay.
Matthieu: So, it’s taking more than Meituan isn’t it? 4 Renminbi is taking like 20%.
Carol: Because when consumers order the drinks, normally they will order more than one cup.
Matthieu: I see. Okay I understand. So then if you have more than two, it’s beginning to become cheaper… I mean more than one Is becoming cheaper than Meituan, but if you have less than one DADA is going to be more expensive.
Matthieu: Since you have less than one.
Carol: You can say that.
Matthieu: Okay. Do you change then? Do you change… go to Meituan when actually it’s only one and go to Dada if it’s more than one?
Carol: No actually it’s consumers who decide Ele.me or Meituan or our own platform.
Matthieu: You cannot use Meituan and say, we sent to you a client, you cannot do that, they bring you clients.
Matthieu: Okay. So, you are working with Ele.me, you’re working with Meituan, you’re working with Dada any other thirds parties you work with?
Carol: We used to work with Baidu delivery but Baidu now…less and less consumers use Baidu… so now we don’t work with them anymore only Ele.me and Meituan and our own platform.
Matthieu: Okay. Talking about Baidu, do you use other services of Baidu like Baidu map? Is it something you try to work on…?
Matthieu: You don’t use Baidu maps to drive clients to your shop, who look for coffee. It’s not something you would want to work on?
Carol: No, because actually Baidu is a company, I don’t like a lot. So, for this kind of company we don’t want to cooperate with them.
Matthieu: Interesting. I get that a lot.
Carol: Because it’s kind of a social responsibility, I think…
Matthieu: Okay. It’s very strange Baidu has a very different image and Google has… people trust a lot Google but in China people are very reluctant to trust Baidu results.
Carol: Yes. Because it is not available, Google is not available we have to use Baidu, but actually most of my friends most of my people around me they think Baidu is not a very good company.
Matthieu: You said that the competition was more and more fierce. And of course, we are talking about… we are thinking about Luckin, we are thinking about Xicha (Hey Tea), of course we can think about Starbucks. What were you talking about saying that the competition was fiercer and fiercer?
Carol: Yes, may be two years ago or one years or may be two years… I think there are not as much more player as now, because especially recent two year… I think you have heard about Luckin coffee. I don’t know if you have ordered Luckin coffee, Coffee Bucks these are very important players on the delivery coffee area and there are some other very big, big chain store like… of course Starbucks but there are other local players like Xicha coffee, they have very big chains and they have the investment to back them up, and they have very good resources to have the good locations, to go into the good shopping malls. In addition to that there are very small players like us, like the independent small coffee shops and recently we find more and more small coffee shops like us are coming into the market. If you go to the French Concession, may be every 5m..500m you can find very small coffee shops. So, the competition now is very fierce, different types, different models, they are competing to win the consumers.
Matthieu: I feel that your idea was to have very small coffee shops, so people take away like is the one on Mengzi Road is really take away. It’s like 20 sq. meters or 15 sq. meters?
Matthieu: 25 sq. meters, so it’s very small I think the kitchen, the storage is doing half of it and then you have half of it which is with like 5 or 6 seats, and with this model I think is best to optimize the cash flow and the sale because people take away and don’t stay. I feel that’s part of your strategy. Am I correct?
Carol: Yes, but this kind of strategy is going very popular now like Manner Coffee I don’t know if you heard about this brand… Manner coffee. Their space is even smaller than us, and their price is also lower than us and their coffee quality is good and not bad. So, this kind of strategy this kind of model in Shanghai now is very popular and a lot of players come into this area.
Matthieu: Okay. Yes, there is one thing I wanted to talk about is how you differentiated from the competition? I felt the first time I went to your coffee shop is that you take care a lot about the product itself. It’s for the first time for me. it was not too hot and not too cold neither. It was very right temperature for me the coffee, and also the taste was very, very special. It was good, it was different from Starbucks and other players.
A few questions on this, how have you worked on it? To differentiate on the product itself, from a small company… because you are still a small company and secondly what are the feedbacks of the clients? Do you get some feedbacks about the product itself?
Carol: Yes, referring to how do you differentiates of Big Sur from other small players, we focus on the details like you mentioned the temperature and we focus on the service, we focus on the high quality of the coffee. So, on these three dimensions, good quality coffee, details and the service we hope that we can outstand within our competitors and your next question is what I am sorry?
Matthieu: The feedback of the client, do you feel that the clients come back to you because of the quality of the product or because more of your location?
Carol: I think both.
Matthieu: Yes, because let’s take again Mengzi Road and let’s take anywhere basically, like French Concession, you have so many coffee shops, so if people come back to you, it’s not because of the location because they just need to do like 20m more or 30m more and they find another coffee shops. So, it’s certainly something with the service and the product, what do they value do you think?
Carol: I think location is first and then the good quality. For the white collars they can’t go a long way to get a cup of coffee. I think the convenience is very important for them. So that’s why the location is a key factor to us and then it’s the good quality. If the quality is not good even if you are very convenient, they will not come as well. So, I think location is first and then good quality.
Matthieu: So, because we are still talking about the competition could you tell us a bit more about how you analyze the success of all the competitors besides an investment. How do you analyze the success of Luckin coffee? How do you analyze the success of Xicha or GreyBox? And I guess there are different reasons for each of them. What’s your point of view on the success of those players?
Carol: I think for Luckin Coffee, I think the key factor of their success is their marketing, it’s their advertisement and the marketing and their promotion.
Matthieu: Promotion you mean discount you mean delivery?
Carol: Yes. The promotion of and their marketing they combine very well because they use the marketing tool to give discount to their consumers.
Matthieu: Could you give some examples?
Carol: You know they have their app. Luckin app and they have their WeChat account.
Matthieu: They have their own application and they have a mini program on WeChat.
Carol: Yes, they have their… I mean the WeChat account, they can publish their add course every week. So, through these tools they continue to give their discounts through these tools, to accumulate their members… their memberships and to ask their consumers to invite their friends, and continue to invite another friend…it’s like a kind of you know how to say….
Matthieu: Yeah, a little bit like Pinduoduo.
Carol: Yes, it’s kind of….
Matthieu: It’s like a network effect.
Carol: Yes, networking marketing tools. So, I think this is their key factor and how they are successful and how so many members now they have.
Matthieu: What about the other one Xicha and GreyBox?
Carol: For Xicha and GreyBox, I think their key… how to say… I think it’s just their base and the location
Matthieu: Means the environment?
Carol: The first…
Matthieu: You mean the environment how they design the environment?
Carol: Yes, how they design the environment and the location because the location is if you see GreyBox and Xicha, the location is a very good location on the very hot shopping mall, and the design and the space is very modern, it’s very comfortable. It’s very nice to sit there, to have a talk, to work there.
Matthieu: Yes, because people stay in their coffee shop. So, have you ever tried to know how many cups of coffee do they sell in the day, because it may not be actually that different sometimes from your results, because you have lot of take aways. And they don’t have… people stay and when people stay, they may not consume like five coffees, they consume one… they just stay for two hours. Have you tried to compare a little bit with the coffee shop which is close to you, Starbucks coffee shop or other coffee shops how many cups of coffee they may sell? And if it is actually much higher than you actually similar, with a bigger space. Did you have this thinking before?
Carol: Yes, I have this kind of thinking. But I actually don’t know the exact figure, you know how many more coffees do they sell because of the space. I think there is a Starbucks near the (37:59) road, actually I don’t know the exact figure how many cups they sell every day. But I think for at least one (inaudible 38:19) is because of their space.
Matthieu: Okay. Talking about how to scale, because you said like Luckin, Star bucks of course, but Luckin, Xicha, GreyBox, they have a lot of money. in terms of opening a coffee shop, what amount of money do we talk about in terms of initial investment before operating? Could you share it a bit of ranges of money you need to……?
Carol: You mean like our coffee shop? this kind of small coffee shop.
Matthieu: Yes. Roughly
Carol: At least 500 thousand.
Matthieu: 500 thousand so 50万RMB
Matthieu: 500 thousand renminbi, which is about nearly 60,000 Euros – 70,000 Euros.
Matthieu: Where does it go this money? It goes in… so do you have to pay upfront, like three months of rent plus deposit? Where does the money go?
Carol: One big part is the coffee machine.
Matthieu: Oh yes. How much is it?
Carol: Our coffee machine is La Marzocco it’s a from Italy, it’s very expensive but it’s kind of high-end machine brand in the industry. It cost around 75,000 RMB. 75,000 RMB for one coffee machine.
Matthieu: Okay so about 10 thousand Euros nearly. Okay
Carol: Yes, and that’s not only in the coffee machine, there is a grinder to have the coffee powder, the coffee beans to the coffee powder. This grinder also cost around 20,000 RMB.
Matthieu: I see.
Carol: Normally we have two kind of grinders because one is for the espresso coffee and the other is for the pour over coffee. So, you have at least two grinders.
Matthieu: Okay. Then the other part because this is….
Carol: The other part is… normally we pay rent. We have to have three-month deposit.
Matthieu: Three months deposit and do you need to pay three months in advance as well so six months total when you begin?
Matthieu: Six months total when you begin. right? Okay so that’s a big amount.
Carol: But in some occasion it’s two and two.
Matthieu: Okay. Talking about the future how do you think you can scale? How do you think you can move from three coffee shops to twenty? To ten let’s say, even ten, what do you think could be the drivers for you to scale? What’s your analysis on that?
Carol: Actually, now our strategy is quite different from the strategy of last two years. Last year we wanted to expand very fast, but we experienced these two failures, the Hefei shop and the shop in the Peoples Square, so now we review our inside management, our qualities, our service, our details. I think that we have to do some… the basic sense, the ground, we want to hunt the ground, very solid and then we expand. The roots, the ground… we have not built it very well, if we planned to expand it will be failure for us. So now on one hand we strengthen our professionalism of our baristas and we launched our secret guest project to strengthen our surveys, our…
Matthieu: Mystery shopping?
Carol: Yes. To strengthen our customer service and the consumers experience in our shops, and then we focus a lot on the quality of our coffee, of our coffee beans. As I mentioned in the last article, first of all our strategy is post coffee and tea, but now we think this strategy is not very good because even our coffee is good but the consumer will perceive our coffee is not professional because we have tea. So now we focus more and more on the coffee and reduce the tea products a lot. And also, we focus on the coffee beans, we want to work with the origin of the coffee beans like the South African like the African countries who farms and harvest the cherry, the coffee beans because we think only if we have very good coffee beans, then we can have very good quality coffee.
Carol: So now we focus our more time on this areas the good quality coffee beans, the experience, the customer service, the details and the professionalism of our baristas, and when we do very perfect outstanding of all these areas, then we will expand to our… to be bigger.
Matthieu: I understand, thank you very much for your time Carol, so you are managing the coffee shop Big Sur and you are based on three location in Pudong, Mengzi Road and in French Concession.
Carol: Jiashan Road.
Matthieu: Jiashan road, so anyone listening to us try Big Sur coffee shops on these locations. Thank you very much.
Carol: Thank you Matthieu, bye.