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Podcast transcript #58: WeChat expert in China, promoting user experience on WeChat

Find here the full transcript of China paradigm episode 58. Learn more about Clement Ledormeur’ story, a Wechat expert in China , and find all the details and additional links below.

Full transcript below:

Matthieu David: Hello everyone, I am Matthieu David, the founder of Daxue consulting and its podcast China Paradigm. And today, I am with Clement Ledormeur. You are the general manager and partner of 31Ten a digital agency based in China, based in Shanghai more precisely, and why is this based in Shanghai? It’s in your name, 31Ten is the latitude of Shanghai. 31 degrees and 10 and you have been especially WeChat expert in China. You are leveraging this WeChat ecosystem to build on apps and solutions for your clients. 31Ten was created I think 4 – 5 years ago now, maybe it’s nearly five years ago, and you joined 31Ten in 2017.

You have been in China for seven years since 2012 – always worked in the digital industry, digital innovations in China, and now you are leading 31Ten with about 15 people if my information is correct. So, thank you very much for being with us Clement and my first question is always the same for everyone, what’s the size of your company? So, if you could give a sense of the size of the company, 15 people – which is what is in your presentation but can you give a bit of idea of the number of products you’ve been working on, not yourself but 31Ten as a company and the number of clients. To give a sense to the audience, where you are in your development.

Clement Ledormeur: So yeah, as you mentioned, we started four years ago and always focusing on WeChat since the very beginning of the company. We’ve been working at the beginning with 4A agencies and probably a few techs, QA, BBH, BBO, that we’re regarded as WeChat expert in China and basically outsourcing the WeChat solution to mobile companies or mobile apps for their big disclaimers.

So, in the beginning, we’ve been working with big brands such as Nike, NBA in the luxury industry as well, so over the past four years I think we have more than 100 clients now. We’ve been working on more than 120 projects; we have an average of 30 projects per year. At the beginning of the creation, of 31Ten.

Matthieu David: I see, and the team is 15 people?

Clement Ledormeur: 15 people, yeah absolutely. So, we started offering free services, which were digital innovations in China, tech, and design because the three founders were– one digital strategist, one designer, and one tech. So, that’s how we started and then on the strategy side we actually shut down the department one year and a half ago. We are still using the last strategy, but more on the solution side. So basically, applying our digital innovations in China in favor of the solution right now.

Matthieu David: I see, actually I have a lot of questions based on what you just said. The first thing is – why publicists – why do big companies many need an outside agency to help them to build mini-programs or to use WeChat? They are so big; they have so many talents, so many people, why can’t they do that internally?

Clement Ledormeur: Well I believe simply because their business model and their team is not structured to actually develop or to conceptualize on the tech side, so they will have like capacities in terms with CTO for example, but they wouldn’t have special developers in house and working directly in a giant majority on the clients solution. Because you need to be super reactive, especially in the advertising space, every solution can change from one week to another, so you need to have basically tech people on-site working directly on the solution with them and with the agency.

Matthieu David: So that means that- what you do – you do everything internally – I understand that you use an API or WeChat or you use already existing framework and so on, but does it mean that you develop the final product actually internally within your 15 people team?

Clement Ledormeur: We don’t have a product per se. We actually focus only on tailor-made bespoke solutions. So, opposite to Thomas, which you interviewed in the past.

Matthieu David: Thomas Graziani from Walk the Chat.

Clement Ledormeur: Right. So, Thomas would work on the more SaaS solution WeChat store, we would work only on bespoke tailor-made solutions. So that says a different certain point and Aristo would focus more on the cross border while actually also because we are only in Shanghai, we would focus only on the local market with brands that are in China.

Matthieu David: I see. But developing bespoke would be very time-consuming. I believe you are already using some framework solutions, API’s – existing API’S which are supposed to be communicating with WeChat and other environments. Could you tell us more about the environment you are using in order to build your mini-program? I’ll give an example to the audience – well maybe westerners. When you build a website in the West, you use WordPress. Mostly, more than half of the websites worldwide. It’s easy to use, it is fast, Google ranking fast and so on – what frameworks, what languages do you use in China to build on WeChat?

Clement Ledormeur: So actually, there are already like 2 or 3 frameworks that are quite popular on mini-programs. As you mentioned mini-programs, in that case, there is one called Taro, which is based on React and React is actually developed by Facebook developers. So, it’s actually a western kind of stack. In the WeChat – which is used by for example, mini-program is based on this framework and there are already more than 15,000 developers that have started this on GitHub, and there are two or three others, so basically – same as usual, you would have a standard framework, so like WordPress – say WordPress that you mentioned in western countries for website. Well, Tencent has actually used framework for mini-program, it’s just that right now I see more and more developers are using and trying to improve the framework which is the basis for Tencent, to more faster solutions to Taro or MPVue which is also based on VueJS to improve the mini-program itself.

Matthieu David: How do you spell those frameworks – for the audience.

Clement Ledormeur: T-A-R-O, there is actually a GitHub repository – I think there is one repository online that you could find. WeChat – all the frameworks and plugins and whatever you need for WeChat mini-program development, there is also one that has been done by Andrew on the Udemy or is it Udesk – sorry. So yeah, the community is expanding, and there are more and more online courses and tutorials and frameworks that are all being developed.

Matthieu David: For people who are listening to us who are not tech-savvy as much as you are, GitHub is a platform where developers are going to share their work and are going to share their knowledge. Am I correct? Can we say that?

Clement Ledormeur: Yeah you can say that.

Matthieu David: And to plug-in, a system easily when you develop your solution.

Okay, I understand that and thank you very much for being so detailed. Then, there’s another key work you are using. It’s the word solution. Could you explain more why you are using the word solution? Does it mean that your objective is to answer to a problem of a client, so you bring a solution, and what does the solution opposed to? What do you oppose solution to? Do you oppose the solution to purely design? Aesthetic design? Why do you use and insist of the word solution?

Clement Ledormeur: So, we use solutions because we are not doing any marketing activities such as media buying and so on, so we, as WeChat expert in China, focus solely on data analysis and visualization in China, on WeChat solution. So yeah WeChat solutions we bake, but in WeChat solutions I include something like – loyalty program, like WeChat store – so e-commerce, like B2B platforms or potholes for B2B clients, for H5 complaints, for digital marketing activation. So, it could be plenty of solutions actually, it’s the same that in western countries would be more like web and mobile app. On WeChat in the past few years to become more like mini-programs or H5 as we call them.

Matthieu David: So, you’re using the word solution as a product to say, you are focusing on the product, you develop a product, but you’re not managing them, you’re not providing the service behind them. That would be another agency, a marketing agency – and you are this agency building solutions. I understand now.

In the presentation you sent to me, on the other hand, you talked a lot actually about UX testing and UI testing. Is it part of the solution you are designing as you design it and then you test, and could you tell us more about what you do in terms of UX and UI specifically in data analysis and visualization in China?

Clement Ledormeur: Right, so this really depends on the client’s presence in China. Whether or not they already have solutions in place, for example, let’s say they have their e-commerce website or their WeChat store, but their performance is not as good as they expect. So yes, the idea would be true to do a usability testing, UX testing, simple data analysis and visualization in China of their current performance of this solution. We see how we could improve the user experience to optimize the conversion rate. So, if it’s e-commerce, the KPI would be to drive more sales to improve their conversion rate of the checkout for example. To increase the payments success rate, as what we’ve done for some client for example Club Med with their booking system, which basically they had the program helping their payments success rate, which was about 60%, so basically out of hundred, thousands of visitors per year, only 60% managed to go through the whole payment process, which is basically checked out and pay either with Alipay

Matthieu David: 60% – its 6 – 0 or 16?

Clement Ledormeur: 60. Actually, the average is around 80% if you compare it to an issue – if you look at the market, and so yeah, we try to improve their payments success rates and that’s what we’ve done in around two months if I remember well.

Matthieu David: Okay, over two months what you tested and you asked people to use a platform, and you assessed actually what was wrong and what was good, in order to improve what was wrong and keep what was right. Am I correct?

Clement Ledormeur: Exactly. And one of the examples I can mention is that for example, they were offering Alipay on their WeChat store, so on their website eCommerce, on WeChat but as you might know, actually Alipay doesn’t work within WeChat ecosystem so you need to – in terms of user experience you would quit WeChat pay first, even hide Alipay if the user is on WeChat Border, so this is a kind of optimization that you can do, we’ve wanted to deep dive, audit on the tech and UX side to improve this, but yeah – the number one KPI was basically going from 60% payment success rate to 80%. Within four months and that’s what we’ve done.

Matthieu David: I see, very impressive actually because basically, you improved by 40% the results if I’m correct, right?

Clement Ledormeur: By 20% and yes –

Matthieu David: 20 points but 40%, right?

Clement Ledormeur: Yes, absolutely. Your math is better than mine.

Matthieu David: It’s a secret marketing tool, it’s better to say 40%.

Clement Ledormeur: Right. So, another example that I want to mention is, for example, I’ve been working with Starbucks China website, on the Chinese website. That was two years ago and we used some solution such as HotJar   which is an additive – that would do some – for example session recording, sleep maps, store maps, you can also view the users going through your website, to see what they wanted to add on the new website and basically where the pain points of the users are who get on the Starbucks website. So, we’ve been doing this for a couple of weeks to understand what users wanted before actually redesigning their website.

Matthieu David: And HotJar, we know that is a western solution and we know that in China it has been very difficult to use some western solutions. I’ll give you an example, I love the website Similar Web, and every time I’m interviewing someone, I put the website on Similar Web to know where the traffic is coming from. It doesn’t work in China. It doesn’t have a performance in China. So how about HotJar? Is it lagging, is it performant? And what about Google analytics? What about as a solution you were mentioning your PBT, which are western solutions.

Clement Ledormeur: So yes, that’s always been the number one question – seven years ago for the Australians – is Google analytics working in China? Yes, actually its tricky stuff. So the measurement is working perfectly fine in China, it’s just that the dashboard access to the tool itself would sometimes require VPN, I think that’s the same problem with you eventually, but yeah – HotJar works the same way as Google Analytics, it’s just a script which would load, but basically would not have any impact on your dump,  any time of the solution, so there is no problem on this, but indeed sometimes you would load some mojos that would be slow to load, for example, if I want to put  surveys directly on the website – this would load a bit slow. So that’s why sometimes we also add these solutions to enter the Chinese market.

Content Square had some issues in the past and now they’ve been working on it to accelerate every time the solution in China. So, there’s plenty of them, but we’re improving the solution for the Chinese market, but we’ve also been working a lot with local analytics solutions. It mostly depends on the digital innovations in China for the digital ecosystem of the brand. If it’s an international brand, they would rely on that for all their markets, it doesn’t make sense to use another tool, a local one for the Chinese market.

Matthieu David: I see, for the people listening to us who may not be familiar with all the solutions you mentioned. Content Square is a one-stop solution where actually you would track a bit of everything happening on your website. It’s a bit of HotJar plus Google analytics and understanding how to improve your conversion rate.

Clement Ledormeur: Yes, it’s very similar to HotJar and on top of this they can also plan with some AB testing solution such as ABTasty for example, so yes that would be an add-on they have, it’s a bit more detailed and data-centric.

Matthieu David: So, I understand about the UX and UI phase, by the way, what difference do you do in terms of UX phase and UI phase in the aspect of data analysis and visualization in China? I see that you are differentiating very well in your presentation.

Clement Ledormeur: Right. So UX is all about user experience, so it starts with what we just talked about, so all of the data analysis and visualization in China. Understanding first why you need to redesign or design the solution. So, it’s much more user-centric. So basically, a personalized, understanding of their journey to wireframes and end-user – what would be their navigation through the solution in order to convert on a WeChat store, for example. UI is actually much more about look and feel. Prototyping as well what it will actually look like and do the finalized phase on the wireframes the actual design of the solution.

Matthieu David: I see, so I understand that what you do as part of the auditing is UX and UI, auditing pre-production and maybe post-production, or data analysis and visualization in China. Now, let’s talk more about the solutions you mentioned. I feel you are solving a lot of problems because you are talking about loyalty, you are talking about getting clients as well through the solution you provide. You are talking about creating gamification or so on – I read in your presentation, some examples of engaging with the client. Could you tell us the different segments you have been working on and share some used cases, a bit as you did with Club Med, but maybe more in detail.

Clement Ledormeur: Yeah sure. So, being a WeChat expert in China, we’ve been working on many different solutions on WeChat. So, for example – I don’t know if you’ve heard about WeChat mini-games, so WeChat mini-games are actually gaming functionality built-in WeChat ecosystem and which is based on the same technology as WeChat mini-programs. So, we’ve been WeChat experts in China, especially in developing mini-games for a famous gaming studio company. We built two WeChat mini-games and this was actually the solution that we built that got us the most traffic. We add up to 4 million daily average users on the mini-games –

Matthieu David: Wow!

Clement Ledormeur: Yeah, because it might sound silly but these mini-games are actually the money maker or content right now. The cash cow basically. So, it’s now pushing really hard on having more minigames on their platform because that generates a lot of revenue for them. They take up to 40% of all the advertisement on minigames right now.

Matthieu David: Okay, let’s talk more about these mini-games, I feel its something we have never gone through with China Paradigm. Could you tell us more about the story of this minigame and why it was designed as a mini-game? Did people have to pay for the mini-game? What was the objective of the mini-game? What was the KPI we’re looking at with this mini-game, and well what it’s about?

Clement Ledormeur: So actually, mini-games started around one year ago. So, we were one of the first agencies starting to build mini-games. We have done a crash course here in Shanghai to explain how to build a mini-game. We’ve started with one version, but here the studio came to us because they simply didn’t have the WeChat expert in China. They were great at doing mobile apps, games for the western market. Actually, all their games are on the Appstore worldwide. Converting thesemobile app games into a WeChat mini-game was something strange to them and difficult for them to make. So that’s why we helped them on this –

Matthieu David: I see. It was a conversion then. An adaptation let’s say, to adapt their game, not adapt literally speaking, maybe a little bit but mainly technologically speaking.

Clement Ledormeur: Yes, and of course UX – UI as well, in terms of design as well.

Matthieu David: Okay, but why did they want to do it on WeChat if they have so little presence in China? What did they want to prove? What was the idea behind it? Did people have to pay for the game? Was it a stream of revenue? Was it to get followers? What was the objective?

Clement Ledormeur: So, they get a stream of revenue through advertising as well. So, while Tencent would pick 40% of the advertising revenue, this game company would pay for the rest of it. So, every we click on the banner advertising on the WeChat mini-game, everyone would actually be a stream of revenue.

Matthieu David: Okay I understand. So this studio came to you and said, we have this game, we want to make digital innovations in China because we know that China is a big audience, we know Chinese like games, they play a lot through Tencent – Tencent ecosystem and they want you to adapt it. But then the question is, how did they get 4 million daily average users if you don’t do the marketing?

Wechat expert
[Source: a screenshot of China Paradigm interview, “Matthieu David asking about 31Ten’s services”]

Clement Ledormeur: So yeah, that was also a big part of the job. It was to establish a partnership with Tencent. So that’s what they talked internally. So, it’s actually a partnership with Tencent, going to Shenzhen to meet them, to adjust report on their digital innovations in China. So basically, they’ve been receiving the traffic, the audience also, thanks to this partnership with Tencent directly.

Matthieu David: So, when you say partnership – because this word is used a lot, partnership with someone, but what it means? Is it that you are pushed actually on the first page of the app store? What is a partnership with Tencent? What can it look like?

Clement Ledormeur: So yes, that would be exactly the example you mentioned is exactly the one they have been going through but not only. So yes, they have been promoted on the top games on the WeChat mini-games ecosystem for about a week or a month if I remember well. So that, of course, helps to direct traffic on the games itself.

Matthieu David: I see. Okay. I got it. When you have to adapt a game, like an existing game to WeChat, what can you take from the existing game and what do you have to adapt? Is it that you have to create an H5? Is it that you have actually to record everything? Can you explain a bit more about the process?

Clement Ledormeur: Sure, so actually it’s a bit similar to western countries in the sense that for example with Facebook instant games which are very popular right now in Europe and worldwide, which are web games. Converting mobile app games into the Facebook instant game would be slightly similar to converting a mobile app game into a WeChat mini-game somehow. The big difference for Chinese cross-platform solution is about their cut base. A mobile app would be 16 MB or so, right. Even more sometimes. So here we have to convert into 4 MB, I think now they’ve limited around 8 MB, you can still have the backend to extend, but yeah – the big part of the project is to optimize as much as possible to make it as fast as possible as well, on WeChat.

Matthieu David: Okay. You talked about games, you talked before about loyalty programs. Loyalty solutions. Can you give some examples of what you have done for the loyalty purpose? Loyalty is a way to push your existing clients to come back to your website, to come back to your store and buy again.

Clement Ledormeur: Yes. So, I’ve been working in the past notably in the cosmetics industry, so yeah – I’ve been asked to build their club. So basically every customer would become a member for this brand and so in that sense they would potentially buy in pharmacy, convenience store even, on TMall and they would be able to scan a QR code directly on the packaging of the product, to verify if the product is genuine or not, and that would give them points. Because they’ve bought a product with the QR code, we know they’re our customer, so we know that they are a member, and we give them points so that they can later redeem. So back then we had like a cinematic – they could listen, that really depends on what the users are looking for, you would have a club that you could redeem your points into actual products or get rewards, incentives.

Matthieu David: So, the Chinese cross-platform solution you would provide here is a mini-program which can scan and send the information, the WeChat ID to a database which is managed by the company and at the same time I believe people after scanning would follow the official account of the brand.

Clement Ledormeur: Right. Absolutely and we got like around 80% of the visitors that were actually converting into members.

Matthieu David: Okay, so 80% of the visitors were converting into members, what can you expect in your sales then?

Clement Ledormeur: Well, first of all, you are increasing follower’s database on your WeChat official account. That’s already a good KPI that you need to keep in mind because then you can do all the marketing activities you want on the official account. Then it’s about repeat purchase, because potentially if you bought this bottle, we know that you bought this bottle at this day, we could potentially push a message six months later because we estimate that the bottle will be – they will need to rebuy for this. So, you could push a WeChat coupon directly on this product page and so on and so on. So, obviously the return on sales is much higher for existing customers than for new customers, we sell for prospects.

Matthieu David: I see. Implementing this kind of loyalty programs, do you have some numbers to share on how it has improved the sales? Can we expect the sales to grow by 3%, by 5% can you expect like 10% of the client’s base is going to become loyal when they go through the program? Do you have some numbers to share?

Clement Ledormeur: Yeah so on the safe side I think we – based on the study was done recently, there was like plus 30% of the basket – the average basket of the solution set for members because they gained more points right. If there has been this much a month, they would get more points. So, it was around plus 30% on the basket. The size of the basket is directly on the e-commerce solution and a medium of plus 5% conversion rate for members.

Matthieu David: I see, the conversion rate is the number of units, and 30% would be the volume. So basically, you have double, double leverage. So, the volume is higher and the number of people buying is higher.

Clement Ledormeur: With China being right now more and more competitive, there are more and more brands, and even international brands are quite challenged now by local brands. Especially in the cosmetics industry. So, you need to leverage your existing client’s database where there is a chance to get more new prospects or new traffic directly on the solution.

Matthieu David: Yes, it’s cheaper to sell a product again to an existing client, than it is to get a new client. So, on this topic of a loyalty program and this way of getting an audience following you, I feel that everything is going through WeChat. That means that if someone wants to implement such a system, he needs to have a shop on WeChat, he needs to have an official page and so on, it’s a bit of a closed ecosystem. Do you agree with this analysis?

Clement Ledormeur: Yes. I agree with this analysis but actually the digital innovations in China is changing really fast, so yeah we’ve been focusing on WeChat for four years and we are realizing that it’s changing really fast, in the sense that if you look at the numbers, I believe WeChat has lost 7% of the mobile time spent last year, over Byte Dance, so they went from 53% in 2017 to 46% in 2018, and Byte Dance from 3 to 10. Weibo has also gained some share back. Five years ago, I was criticizing Weibo on the quality of the media, of the traffic got as a solution, and right now they are gaining share back. So, you need to adapt to a very fast pace in digital innovations in China. So, WeChat only would not be a good strategy, which I say to clients, also going on TMall only or marketplaces only. It’s all ecosystem, then it depends on your digital strategy and you know much better than I do on this, but yes – on the solution side we do kind of Chinese cross-platform solutions more and more, meaning we have the right solution according to the right channel. So, for example, for Weibo, it would be a mobile site or website. For WeChat, mini-program would convert much better than the website, and for ByteDance, so ByteDance is trying to launch as well their solution on their side, so yeah you have to adapt to this and be more omnichannel,Chinese cross-platform solution.

Matthieu David: Correct me if I’m wrong, but what I feel is that when you talk about Byte Dance or TikTok doing-especially If there are many other solutions. We talked about Byte Dance, we talked about Weibo, but when we talk about traffic drivers – platforms who can drive traffic. Now when we talk about WeChat, we talk about an eco-system, we talk about a system basically, a developing system where you can have your shop, you can have your page, you can have your followers, you can have your database, it’s much more sophisticated and you can build on it. You can develop, and which is your job, which is what you do, and which is to develop. So, when we talk about Byte Dance and Weibo, then I feel that you don’t have much to do with them in Chinese cross-platform solutions. You just want them to send traffic.

Clement Ledormeur: Yeah, well actually Byte Dance is for very specific industries ideally, because it shows videos. So, it’s great for – If you’re a KOL doing a makeup tutorial and I can buy directly online. Usually Douyin – Byte Dance, TikTok would re-direct to TMall, to Taobao directly. So, you can actually redirect to a Chinese Cross-platform solution, doesn’t matter if it’s with WeChat or not, it’s much more about the whole ecosystem again, and that’s what Maybelline for example, is doing. That’s why all the luxury brands right now are going into Douyin – into Byte Dance, TikTok. So, I believe WeChat is a super app and there is no one currently -it’s still the number one app in China, but you need to see the whole digital innovations in China, especially the crowd in social media. Other channels If it makes sense.

Matthieu David: I’d like now to talk about your own marketing, the marketing of 31Ten. In the PDF you sent to me, you are mentioning a lot of white paper and presentations. I understand that’s part of your own marketing. Could you tell us more about how you build all those reports? How are you able to collect all this information and stay up to date? What are your sources and how do you build those white papers?

Clement Ledormeur: Yeah so that was since the beginning as well we wanted to share deep-dive content on WeChat, but not only, first on the digital environment and ecosystem in the process of digital innovations in China. So, we do all the content in-house and we actually rely on everyone’s expertise to mark on these white papers. So sometimes its teamwork involving five to ten people, so almost all the team and we spend – for example, the latest one is about the social experience in China and we spend around six months – nine months. We have actually acquired a lot of expertise through a mission for a client LVMH, one of the LVMH – on selecting the right social solution in China for their brand and we actually did not use any content from the mission, which was even more challenging. So, we had to start all over again, writing this white paper. So, we have a full process and its usually at least one month to work minimum and I would say roughly an average around three months’ work involving many team members.

Matthieu David: So how do you stay up to date? I understand a report is specific on specific topics, but how do you stay up-to-date about the digital innovations in China yourself?

Clement Ledormeur: Well probably the same as you. By being in many WeChat groups, communities, by also talking to events, sharing with people working in the same industry. We also do a lot of research on local blogs and official accounts, Chinese ones – to stay up to date and to see what the local players are all doing in this industry.

Matthieu David: What are your best sources? Is TechNode a source you would recommend? Is it a source you would recommend? What kind of blog, what kind of sources you would recommend to the audience to stick with? Could be in Chinese, could be in English.

Clement Ledormeur: Yes. So, TechNode would be one of them, but China Channel as well. WeChat – I think we list around 20 official accounts, western and local, so it really depends on if you are looking for content in English or Chinese, but yeah we have one showing All the official accounts that you should follow in China to stay up to date and this is actually a very important part of the job.

Matthieu David: I see. In your domain name its written Could you tell us more why its .network and are you satisfied that you took a .network? I feel people may be mistaken by

Clement Ledormeur: Yeah, ideally, we chose the only domain name that was not clickable on WeChat directly. Yes, so well that was – the initial idea of the founders was to be a part of the network, to work with reliable partners offering the solution that we don’t provide, and I think that’s what we are also doing right now. We are working with amazing partners on different sides of it, strategy, marketing, media buying, events – so we still rely a lot on our network community. We also wanted to share with our network, so that’s why we published for this content and white papers, but yes, to be honest, the domain name itself is really hard, so that’s why the white paper is also important as well. 

Matthieu David: Yeah for the people who are listening to us, if you want to go to the website of 31Ten, you have to go and I believe some people may think it would be

One thing I’ve always admired with 31Ten is your ability to moderate community. The ability to be the ones who share, the ones who want good to the community, in the French tech community, in China Channel community, I think we can talk about the community. How did it come up, where did it come from? Was it a clear strategy? Was it the mindset of the founders? Was their character like this? Could you tell us more, I feel there is something I’m missing in terms of the strategy of getting into the market.

Clement Ledormeur: It’s actually definitely the mindset of the founders. I think we share the same values, we always believe in good karma – what we call, so basically right now we are sharing everything. We know that it’s being used by competitors, by everyone in the field is re-using our content, our expertise, but sometimes you know, it will pay off, and that’s what we believe. So, at the beginning we started – we’ve been bootstrap so knowing that, we just rely on the community and our partners. So we were kind of sharing the good word, spreading the good words, helping people and we believe it was going to pay off and right now it’s actually paying off so – this strategy has been challenging, especially at the beginning when you start your company, but right now we can see all the fruits and the return by receiving really good feedback such as you just did, and I thank you for that.

Matthieu David: Yeah I think its constraint to act this way, it’s not constraint to think this way, because a lot of people think this way, but to really do it, few people do it and that’s one thing I remember I told to my marketing team who were afraid that we are talking about too many things online about how we work and how we do it and I told them, if we don’t do it ourselves, someone else is going to do it after us. So, let’s be the first to be able to talk about how to get software, how to do marketing in china and so on and to share knowledge. Anyway, I think I’m moving fast, you will have the opportunity to update digital innovations in China in the later stage. Thank you very much, Clement, for being with us today, it was very precise, very instructive and exactly actually what I was thinking it would be, so thank you very much for being with us. Congratulations on everything you have achieved, and again for everything you do for the community in Shanghai. I really think everything you do is useful for the community of French Tech and all the community in the digital innovations in China, with all the reports you are sharing and the knowledge you are sharing. So, thanks again for being with us today, and I hope you enjoyed it.

Clement Ledormeur: I enjoyed it very much, thank you, Matthieu. Bye.

Matthieu David: Thanks. Bye, everyone.

China paradigm is a China business podcast sponsored by Daxue Consulting where we interview successful entrepreneurs about their businesses in China. You can access all available episodes from the China paradigm Youtube page.

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